Dave here, live in WI, 48 years old.
Ok, so I'm a long time paddler, both flat and moving water with some experience with white water up to class 2+ stuff in recreational canoes. I have built several kevlar and cedar strip cruisers. I have recently picked up a C-1 which has always been a dream of mine. It's a Perception Gyramax (I've already read enough here to know this is not everyone's favorite boat- but it was cheap!). I have spent some time in it and am amazed at the learning curve, this thing is so different from what I'm used to but still so much fun. I like the boat because it is longer than today's C-1's and allows fairly decent straight forward paddleing, but does seem a bit harder to turn than I thought it would.
I have been using this boat for basic down river running up to class 3, messing around on moving water, eddy turns, surfing and so forth. I don't see myself doing any kind of rodeo so this boat seems to fit my needs.
So here goes, forgive me for all the questions
What was the original design intent for the Gyramax? It clearly isn't really a slalom boat, has a lot of volume for a C-1.
Why does the stern have more volume than the bow? Is it possible to ender this thing?
How does this boat compare with others in stability both beginning and final?l (I get dethroned a lot!).
There is a lot of discussion about paddle length. Thrill of the Paddle says eye level when in the boat, Dave Hearns suggests top of the head in the boat. I have gotten sore shoulders paddling this thing with a paddle in between those lengths and would like to know what everyone thinks.
In making a down stream eddy turn, as the boat reaches parellel to the river turned upstream, there comes a point that the hull seems to "stick" on the water and nearly throws me out. What am I doing wrong?
Thanks for any help guys!
DAVE
Raw newbie to C-1ing with several questions...
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redbeardcanoeworks
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John Coraor
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Dave:
Welcome!
The Gyramax is an early rotomolded plastic C-1 manufactured by Perception based on the "Max" series of slalom C-1s designed by Davey Hearn, Jon Lugbill, and Bob Robison. Introduced in 1984, it was shorter than a regulation slalom boat at the time and had more width and volume than the contemporaneous competitive designs (e.g. the Batmax), making it essentially a recreational river runner. Given a river feature of sufficient size and depth, it is indeed possible to ender a Gyramax.
Going from a recreational cruiser-style open canoe to a C-1 is a fairly big jump. You'll find even a larger volume C-1 like the Gyramax to be narrower and more edgy than an OC-1 cruiser. That is probably what you're experiencing. There would still be a learning curve, but perhaps one less steep, if you were instead transitioning from a more WW specific OC-1, either a slalom OC-1 or one of the shorter, more lively recreational WW OC-1s. However, even these boats tend to be less edgy and more stable than a C-1.
Regarding the problems you're having with eddy turns, your description is a little ambiguous, but I would venture that you may be catching your outside edge mid-way in turning into the eddy. If that is indeed the case, you might try trusting your draw or cross-draw on the inside of the turn a little more, leaning on it more aggressively.
John
Welcome!
The Gyramax is an early rotomolded plastic C-1 manufactured by Perception based on the "Max" series of slalom C-1s designed by Davey Hearn, Jon Lugbill, and Bob Robison. Introduced in 1984, it was shorter than a regulation slalom boat at the time and had more width and volume than the contemporaneous competitive designs (e.g. the Batmax), making it essentially a recreational river runner. Given a river feature of sufficient size and depth, it is indeed possible to ender a Gyramax.
Going from a recreational cruiser-style open canoe to a C-1 is a fairly big jump. You'll find even a larger volume C-1 like the Gyramax to be narrower and more edgy than an OC-1 cruiser. That is probably what you're experiencing. There would still be a learning curve, but perhaps one less steep, if you were instead transitioning from a more WW specific OC-1, either a slalom OC-1 or one of the shorter, more lively recreational WW OC-1s. However, even these boats tend to be less edgy and more stable than a C-1.
Regarding the problems you're having with eddy turns, your description is a little ambiguous, but I would venture that you may be catching your outside edge mid-way in turning into the eddy. If that is indeed the case, you might try trusting your draw or cross-draw on the inside of the turn a little more, leaning on it more aggressively.
John
Do not have much on an opinion on the Gyramax other to say it will teach you everything you need to know regarding your questions. Check the boat review page of the Cboats website. I will say that there is a slalom boat in the Gyramax's lineage and that they are pretty fast and stable.
With regards to paddle length, hard to argue with Davey Hearn's reccomendation. How tall are you? In all honesty, if you have something between 56" and 60" you got something to get going with. It may take years to figure out exactly what you feel comfortable with. Generally, I think, a lot of people end up with something to short and have their hands to close together. Your grip may likely shift back and forth across a fairly wide range depending on your flexibility on the cross bow stroke so you want something that will work for both sides. You definitely want to be able to get all your blade in the water on the "catch" from both sides without having to "hunch over". Start with good habits early. The shorter paddle is easier on your shoulders, the longer paddle will give you more drive and allow you to have a broader stability point when you need to throw a brace out. For playboating a shorter paddle helps when you need to make quick moves.
As to the eddy issue, well, welcome to world of edges! Find a stable eddy that has a well defined pocket close to the eddy wall. Practice entering by starting from the opposite side of the river well upstream, preturn to develop diagonal momentum to the current. When you enter the eddy, you should be almost perpendicular to the current. Drive across the eddy wall and lift your outside edge as soon as you feel the eddy pocket grab your bow. The biggest mistake people make is turning on the eddy wall which is about the most unstable place to turn and can send all kinds of weird feedback to you off your edges. Drive into the eddy and wait. Practice on something really tame that is well defined. Try just using your edges no paddle for balance or dragging it in the water for balance as you enter the eddy. Again, that is a bad habit. The pocket of the eddy is the place you can sit in your boat and totally relax. Pop your spray skirt and a beverage even. It may be five, six feet away from the eddy wall. This may take a thousand attempts to get it right the first time, no kidding. When you have it right you will feel like you boat is banking on the Daytona Speedway!
Bob Putnam has nice video on YouTube search on "ctcboater" I think. He does some nice eddy turns and S-Turns.
Enders? Squirts? Yes, just do not expect much of anything that will be flashy. Unless....
With regards to paddle length, hard to argue with Davey Hearn's reccomendation. How tall are you? In all honesty, if you have something between 56" and 60" you got something to get going with. It may take years to figure out exactly what you feel comfortable with. Generally, I think, a lot of people end up with something to short and have their hands to close together. Your grip may likely shift back and forth across a fairly wide range depending on your flexibility on the cross bow stroke so you want something that will work for both sides. You definitely want to be able to get all your blade in the water on the "catch" from both sides without having to "hunch over". Start with good habits early. The shorter paddle is easier on your shoulders, the longer paddle will give you more drive and allow you to have a broader stability point when you need to throw a brace out. For playboating a shorter paddle helps when you need to make quick moves.
As to the eddy issue, well, welcome to world of edges! Find a stable eddy that has a well defined pocket close to the eddy wall. Practice entering by starting from the opposite side of the river well upstream, preturn to develop diagonal momentum to the current. When you enter the eddy, you should be almost perpendicular to the current. Drive across the eddy wall and lift your outside edge as soon as you feel the eddy pocket grab your bow. The biggest mistake people make is turning on the eddy wall which is about the most unstable place to turn and can send all kinds of weird feedback to you off your edges. Drive into the eddy and wait. Practice on something really tame that is well defined. Try just using your edges no paddle for balance or dragging it in the water for balance as you enter the eddy. Again, that is a bad habit. The pocket of the eddy is the place you can sit in your boat and totally relax. Pop your spray skirt and a beverage even. It may be five, six feet away from the eddy wall. This may take a thousand attempts to get it right the first time, no kidding. When you have it right you will feel like you boat is banking on the Daytona Speedway!
Bob Putnam has nice video on YouTube search on "ctcboater" I think. He does some nice eddy turns and S-Turns.
Enders? Squirts? Yes, just do not expect much of anything that will be flashy. Unless....
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redbeardcanoeworks
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Tom and John,
Thanks for the good info already. As I read you the Gyramax was designed for recreational river running which is what I do.
I'm sure you're right about the eddy turn thing. I had never paddled a boat with edges before and I assume I enter the eddies with the hull too "flat". I paddle on the left side exclusively. As I enter a eddy on river right and swing to parellel, do I lean the boat to the offside (my right) to keep the left edge from catching the slack water? I am still having difficulty leaning to the offside.
I am 6' tall. I started with a 60" paddle but felt I was having difficulty with the tip catching as I removed it at the end of the stroke and particulary on a cross draw it felt very awkward. I went all the way down to a 52" because of what is written in Thrill of the Paddle. Maybe a happy medium?
Thanks for the good info already. As I read you the Gyramax was designed for recreational river running which is what I do.
I'm sure you're right about the eddy turn thing. I had never paddled a boat with edges before and I assume I enter the eddies with the hull too "flat". I paddle on the left side exclusively. As I enter a eddy on river right and swing to parellel, do I lean the boat to the offside (my right) to keep the left edge from catching the slack water? I am still having difficulty leaning to the offside.
I am 6' tall. I started with a 60" paddle but felt I was having difficulty with the tip catching as I removed it at the end of the stroke and particulary on a cross draw it felt very awkward. I went all the way down to a 52" because of what is written in Thrill of the Paddle. Maybe a happy medium?
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Todhunter
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Yes, for offside eddies, I drive across the eddy line, lean to my (upstream) offside (to disengage the downstream edge) and simultaneously do a cross bow draw in the slack water. It works in an OC1 with edges, it has to be at least similar in a C1. You need to get comfortable with offside leans - I know they are still weird for me. Mess around in some flat water and find out how far your boat's stability will hold on the offside, then trust it.redbeardcanoeworks wrote:I'm sure you're right about the eddy turn thing. I had never paddled a boat with edges before and I assume I enter the eddies with the hull too "flat". I paddle on the left side exclusively. As I enter a eddy on river right and swing to parellel, do I lean the boat to the offside (my right) to keep the left edge from catching the slack water? I am still having difficulty leaning to the offside.
At 6 foot tall, a 52" long paddle is almost certainly too short for you, paddling a C-1 in whitewater. Although the trend has been to shorter paddles, a longer paddle will not only allow you more stability on a brace, but make turning the boat with a stern pry or draw more effective. The Gyromax is a big boat by today's standards, and the farther you can get your blade away from the pivot point of the boat, the more effective your stern (and bow) turning strokes will be.
You are probably going to want a paddle with an overall length in the 56-59" range. You might want a paddle a couple of inches shorter than what you would use in an open boat, because you will probably be kneeling lower, and your upper hand will be closer to the water. I would look to have the paddle grip at about forehead or eye level as you take a forward stroke with the blade fully submerged.
Since you have paddled mostly recreational canoes, I would bet that you probably haven't used too many cross strokes. The cross forward is a pretty important stroke in whitewater, especially in C-1, and is not particularly easy to perform, at least at first. In a C-1 with the much lower front deck, it is easier and quicker to cross over than in an open boat.
Most people do find it uncomfortable to lean away from their paddling side, since there is no strong brace available on that side. You can try to become more comfortable with this by simply paddling your C-1 straight ahead on flat water while leaning to your offside.
The Gyromax is a pretty stable boat, and if properly outfitted with straps and a spray skirt, you can heel it over quite a bit without going over, as long as you keep your head centered over your butt. With a skirt, you don't need to worry about getting water in the boat.
You are probably going to want a paddle with an overall length in the 56-59" range. You might want a paddle a couple of inches shorter than what you would use in an open boat, because you will probably be kneeling lower, and your upper hand will be closer to the water. I would look to have the paddle grip at about forehead or eye level as you take a forward stroke with the blade fully submerged.
Since you have paddled mostly recreational canoes, I would bet that you probably haven't used too many cross strokes. The cross forward is a pretty important stroke in whitewater, especially in C-1, and is not particularly easy to perform, at least at first. In a C-1 with the much lower front deck, it is easier and quicker to cross over than in an open boat.
Most people do find it uncomfortable to lean away from their paddling side, since there is no strong brace available on that side. You can try to become more comfortable with this by simply paddling your C-1 straight ahead on flat water while leaning to your offside.
The Gyromax is a pretty stable boat, and if properly outfitted with straps and a spray skirt, you can heel it over quite a bit without going over, as long as you keep your head centered over your butt. With a skirt, you don't need to worry about getting water in the boat.
Dave,
We should maybe paddle together sometime. I live in Madison, and also am a not-so-good c-boater. I have a Dagger Cascade.
I've been paddling at high level for many years; but that's mostly flatwater canoe and kayak (marathon racing in sit-down style canoes & ICF spec flatwater kayaks) and also surfski paddling on the Great Lakes. My whitewater experience is limited and my whitewater skills are decidedely underdeveloped.
I bought my Cascade five or six years ago, but have not done a very good job of taking the time to learn how to paddle it (in whitewater). One of my problems has been not knowing anybody who's willing to splash around in Class II and learn. We should talk.
Regarding your specific questions, the only thing I can comment on is paddle length. I'm 6'1". When I first bought my C-1, I bought a 54" paddle to go with it. At the time; I ignored advice to go longer because in my world of marathon racing canoes, a really long paddle is 51". However, after just a couple sessions, I went and got a 57"; which feels pretty good to me.
Kevin LeRoy
We should maybe paddle together sometime. I live in Madison, and also am a not-so-good c-boater. I have a Dagger Cascade.
I've been paddling at high level for many years; but that's mostly flatwater canoe and kayak (marathon racing in sit-down style canoes & ICF spec flatwater kayaks) and also surfski paddling on the Great Lakes. My whitewater experience is limited and my whitewater skills are decidedely underdeveloped.
I bought my Cascade five or six years ago, but have not done a very good job of taking the time to learn how to paddle it (in whitewater). One of my problems has been not knowing anybody who's willing to splash around in Class II and learn. We should talk.
Regarding your specific questions, the only thing I can comment on is paddle length. I'm 6'1". When I first bought my C-1, I bought a 54" paddle to go with it. At the time; I ignored advice to go longer because in my world of marathon racing canoes, a really long paddle is 51". However, after just a couple sessions, I went and got a 57"; which feels pretty good to me.
Kevin LeRoy
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yarnellboat
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Nothin' to add, but some video of a friend in a Gyromax:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKxj9L4J3As
Pat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKxj9L4J3As
Pat.
I've heard of people squashing the Gyromax stern for a little more pivot action. Hot water and pressure will do it.
The Gyro was a pretty good cruiser for its time. Faster and lighter than any of the other plastic boats. I was paddling an Ultramax slalom boat at the same time, and neither was a good squirter. You really had to work at it. (Of course, I weighed less than 150lbs at the time...
)
The Gyro was a pretty good cruiser for its time. Faster and lighter than any of the other plastic boats. I was paddling an Ultramax slalom boat at the same time, and neither was a good squirter. You really had to work at it. (Of course, I weighed less than 150lbs at the time...
)Bob P
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John Coraor
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You've already received some good advice regarding off-side eddy turns.redbeardcanoeworks wrote:I am still having difficulty leaning to the offside.
I am 6' tall. I started with a 60" paddle but felt I was having difficulty with the tip catching as I removed it at the end of the stroke and particulary on a cross draw it felt very awkward. I went all the way down to a 52" because of what is written in Thrill of the Paddle. Maybe a happy medium?
To get more comfortable with cross-strokes, try a flatwater drill where you paddle exclusively with cross-strokes on your off-side without taking the paddle out of the water. In-between strokes, just rotate the blade so that it is parallel to your boat and then slice it forward to recover. Try turning in circles toward your off-side while only paddling cross-strokes. Then try paddling forward in a straight line using only cross-strokes. If you practice these drills enough times, you'll find yourself getting comfortable with your cross-strokes and manuvers on your off-side won't be as much of a problem.
This kind of practice drill is also likely to help your shoulder feel more comfortable with a longer paddle. Two things about cross-strokes that tend to make you feel more comfortable with a longer paddle are 1) using an underwater recovery between successive cross- strokes instead of lifting the blade out of the water; and 2) leaning your torso forward and reaching aggressively forward on the catch and then ending the cross-forward before it reaches your hip. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the more you execute a cross-forward well in front of you and keep the blade buried in the water - as opposed to executing close to your body and/or lifting the blade out of the water, the more that you'll be able to feel comfortable with a longer paddle.
John
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redbeardcanoeworks
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I'm no great shakes as a white water paddler, but I have tried to introduce a few folks to WW paddling who had a background in paddling flat water and easy rivers.
It really is a different ballgame for most people making this transition. A lot of people who consider themselves very experienced paddlers (and they are) have been able to float down the more straightforward "point and shoot" Class II rapids on a brace, or dragging their paddle, and they think they "know" whitewater.
They often find that they cannot hit even larger eddies, can't maintain or correct a ferry angle in stronger current, and can't execute even the simplest type of upstream move. Some of them seem to throw in the towel at that point. Others hunker down and realize they don't yet know everything there is to know about paddling.
It really is a different ballgame for most people making this transition. A lot of people who consider themselves very experienced paddlers (and they are) have been able to float down the more straightforward "point and shoot" Class II rapids on a brace, or dragging their paddle, and they think they "know" whitewater.
They often find that they cannot hit even larger eddies, can't maintain or correct a ferry angle in stronger current, and can't execute even the simplest type of upstream move. Some of them seem to throw in the towel at that point. Others hunker down and realize they don't yet know everything there is to know about paddling.
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ohioboater
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For sure
Or even make a solo boat go straight! Over the years I've watched the river humble quite a few "experienced" flatwater canoe "instructors." Some had the maturity to realize they had a lot to learn. Others just blamed the boat, the paddle, their outfitting, anything except themselves. You can guess which ones stuck with it...pblanc wrote:A lot of people who consider themselves very experienced paddlers . . . often find that they cannot hit even larger eddies, can't maintain or correct a ferry angle in stronger current, and can't execute even the simplest type of upstream move.
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xmas0c1c1k1
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