New Viper 12

[fleckbass]

Just got a Viper 12. Paddled it 3 times. Twice on the Lower Yough and once on the Cheat Narrows. After paddling a Probe 12 for 5 years, I can say that the Viper snaps into eddies much better and is way drier. Also surfs way better. I haven't mastered the edge yet. One thing I thought might be tough getting used to is stability but this is not an issue. However setting angle for eddies and even worse ferrying is a challenge. I'm sure this will get better with use and I will become a better paddler because of it. However, the one thing I am concerned about is the speed. I'm finding it difficult to get the boat moving. It seems to require tremendous effert to paddle. I understand I will have to use the current more but I'm really surprised that this boat seems so much slower than the Probe. Any thoughts here?

[Randy Dodson]

paddle it mostly from the front.....fewer corrections. LOts of carving inside circles either tight or opened up broad circles that resemble a straight line.

[fleckbass]

Got the first part. Then what? Also, what kind of correction stroke do you recommend for tracking?

[Ed Eout]

Hey Fleck, after paddling a Probe 12 then a series of Viper 12s for 10 years I think I figured some things out.

It likes to be paddled on edge especially when crossing current. If you are trying to keep it flat you'll be getting one edge or another snatched by any old odd current or wave. When up on edge it behaves like an ice skate crossing current and will make some surprisingly dynamic ferries. The stepper your heel (lean) the better. Think of that buried edge like the keel of a sail boat tacking into the wind. More aggressive paddling and carved turns really make this boat shine compared to the muddled handling of the P.

Because it has a relatively short waterline you'll need to develop a good forward stroke. Make sure to stop the power phase before your paddle gets to your knee or you'll just spin the boat.

Corrections should be made at the stern - way at the stern. You'll have to rotate your shoulders so you can look at the back deck. Then you can watch the blade touching the very back portion of the hull. If you correct amidships you will kill every bit of hard won forward momentum you have. Correcting at the bow is wasted effort if you are moving much at all.

This being said, it is a slow boat compared to many. Use the edge for an edge in speed. Once you get your speed up there will be no annoying tendency to squat like the Probe 12.

Finally, check your trim. You don't want to be bow high much, if at all.

E

[fleckbass]

What kind of correction to track? Didn't quite get what you mean by use the edge for an edge in speed. Also, Squat?

[jscottl67]

What kind of correction to track? Didn't quite get what you mean by use the edge for an edge in speed. Also, Squat?

I paddle an Ocoee, so gonna tell you what I'm pretty sure he means

The viper has a pretty flatish bottom when compared with the probe and the Probe has softer chines, you paddle the probe basically upright all the time, the center is lower in the water and helps reduce the tendency for it to turn when you apply power to the forward stroke. You want to lean the viper a little to one side..really just a slight weighting more towards one knee or your bum slid 1/2" further to your on-side (the side you are paddling on). This edge drops lower in the water like the centerline did on the probe, offsetting the "spin" in your power stroke.

Leaning a boat also changes it's profile in the water. That's why you will see people paddling a tandem flatwater boat tilted on it's side when paddling solo. It will track faster and straighter on the edge and you can do less of a correction with each stroke.

Ferrying a boat with an edge is all about the angle of the lean. If you are on river left facing upstream, point your bow slightly left and lean a little left. If you start to spin out left, lean further left and the edge will grab...not enough angle, lean to the right for a second and let the upstream egge catch, but be ready to shift back left when it does to keep it going. When you get used to it, you can zip across the river like the return on an old typewriter

[fleckbass]

Yeah, I get that part now. Thanks for the comments. All that makes sense to me. I'm more concerned about the speed (lack of) factor. What is the best way to get this boat up to speed? Even after setting angle and powering for an eddy it seems like it doesn't want to get there. What is the best correction to keep the boat straight after a forward stroke without taking the paddle out of the water, draw, pry? One other thing the stern draw is requiring a lot of effort. I'm taking everything all of you are saying into consideration. A lot of what I'm hearing I realize. One thing I can see is that edge is key. I guess what I'm asking is this thing always gonna be slow after I learn how to paddle it?

[sbroam]

I've paddled both Viper 12s and Probes and can just say ditto to what the other guys are saying. The Viper 12 is a comparatively fast boat, especially relative to the Probe (not that there is anything terribly wrong or terribly right with it, it's a decent boat). I can't articulate the "how to make it go faster" than the previous posters - just stick with it, you'll get it. I remember my 5 or so years in a V12 fondly, and part of what I miss is the speed...

[craig]

To keep the speed up ,paddle up front using cross forward stokes and forward strokes. Keep them short and up front, you can increase the power and stroke rate; not the length of the stroke. This should help minimize corrections, but if needed keep them quick, so as not to lose momentum

[milkman]

Using all forwards and cross forwards is one way to do it.

If you're used to using stern correction strokes (and it sounds like you are), you simply need to get more efficient with your forward stroke and corrections.

For the forward stroke, see: http://bobfoote.com/bob/tips/theforwardstroke.htm

You should need very little correction if you do this stroke right. From a standing start, after your first forward stroke, you will probably need to do one small stern pry. See: http://bobfoote.com/bob/tips/thesternpry.html. Note where the stern pry is initiated---behind the hip, not at the hip. And note that it's not extreme. You don't want to cut your speed.

Once your boat is on the move, you should be able to just end your forward stroke with a straight rudder. The trick is holding the rudder long enough that it has an effect on the boat's direction and keeps it going straight.

[jakke]

What kind of correction to track? Didn't quite get what you mean by use the edge for an edge in speed. Also, Squat?

I paddle an Ocoee, so gonna tell you what I'm pretty sure he means

The viper has a pretty flatish bottom when compared with the probe and the Probe has softer chines, you paddle the probe basically upright all the time, the center is lower in the water and helps reduce the tendency for it to turn when you apply power to the forward stroke. You want to lean the viper a little to one side..really just a slight weighting more towards one knee or your bum slid 1/2" further to your on-side (the side you are paddling on). This edge drops lower in the water like the centerline did on the probe, offsetting the "spin" in your power stroke.

Leaning a boat also changes it's profile in the water. That's why you will see people paddling a tandem flatwater boat tilted on it's side when paddling solo. It will track faster and straighter on the edge and you can do less of a correction with each stroke.

Ferrying a boat with an edge is all about the angle of the lean. If you are on river left facing upstream, point your bow slightly left and lean a little left. If you start to spin out left, lean further left and the edge will grab...not enough angle, lean to the right for a second and let the upstream egge catch, but be ready to shift back left when it does to keep it going. When you get used to it, you can zip across the river like the return on an old typewriter

I own a viper11, and also paddled a couple times with a probe 11, a bit shorter. But I suppose the way of paddling is the same.

Now I don't get the part on the ferrying. I start to ferry to the left, bow upstream, and the bow is drawn downstream further because of the current. You guys are telling to lean even further left, instead of my first reflex, edge it to the right side?

I have to work more on the leaning part to work with lesser corrections, but the statemens make sense.

btw, I really love this boat, and compared with an esquif vertige -in which I learned to paddle- the viper11 IS fast .

[fleckbass]

I am pretty much doing what you're saying. I even paddled the Probe like that and have seen the Foote instruction. I think i will have to make the pry a bit faster. What do you mean by straight rudder? Another thing I'm trying to comprehend here is the ferrying suggestion. Peel out to the left, already edging left, bow is falling downstream so to keep it upstream edge more left? I'll have to experiment. As far as a stern draw, I am noticing that it requires a lot of effort, even after edging the boat. Seems a bit easier just behind hip. Haven't tried far back as one fellow mentioned. I really appreciate all the comments. It is great to hear from people that already paddled different boats. I wish I would have got a chance to spend some time in different boats. Althought I can say 5 years in the Probe was fun. It seems like the things I didn't like about it the Viper does well. I'm gonna dedicate time to getting it moving. Hope to hear more comments. Come paddle with me on the Yough this weekend.

[PAC]

I might be putting on later in the afternoon on Sunday. Althought I'll be in a C1. No where near an expert but I have some time in both Probes and Vibers.
However, I might be able to talk Big Al to show up then too in his ZOOM. That might be helpful!
Does that work for you? Paul C.

[Randy Dodson]

If even after setting angle and powering for the eddy, it doesn't want to get there, practice carving circles. As your paddling down the river, everything except surfing and ferrying is a matter of carving circles either tight small circles or extremely large broad circles that are so large they really resemble more of a straight line. OR anything in between.

Stern pries and stern draws are great for initiating turns but once you've done that, you go right back to carving. If you see an eddy on the right and you paddle on the right, get some momentum going, initiate your angle with a stern pry and then start using only forward strokes with the boat tilted to the right. If you have enough momentum and the boat is leaned to the right AND your forward stroke is vertical with your grip hand out over the water, then the boat will maintain that carving circle without any correction (which equals speed).
NOW, control your direction by opening up the circle or tightening up your circle depending on what you need to stay headed for the eddy.

You can open up the circle by either letting your blade get a little further away from the boat while paddling forward or by using a little less lean.
Tighten up the circle by leaning the boat a lot and making sure your blade is right next to your boat.
The more speed you build the more it will feel like your having to fight the boats tendency to turn toward your paddle side which is a great thing cause you can paddle harder and faster without any need for a correction (which kills speed).

You do the same thing for your offside except with cross-forward strokes.

The very best thing you can do to develop carving an inside circle is to get out on some flatwater and practice it. Carve circles to your onside and offside. Do figure 8's to practice direction changes, (which is where those stern pries and draws will come into play).

Also keep in mind that on the river, you'll be constantly blending different strokes and maneuvers to get the desired effect but for the most part, you always want to be carving controlled circles.

sorry for the long post. Good Luck.

[fleckbass]

Interesting!