C1 Outfitting Poll

[xmas0c1c1k1]

Okay I will begin by saying sorry this is going to be long but please read and give your input I think it could be a cool thread...

I have been working on my c1 outfitting and the wheels in my head have really started to roll (not a good thing for my studies) As you may have noticed I have asked a few questions recently about thoughts but I want to get an overview of what people like and use.

I am a dagger pedestal guy myself. I like the ease of installation and they seem to work well, but there are definitely drawbacks to the dagger pedestal.

I have done extensive searches on the internet and this site and have seen a variety of setups and ideas and I love how innovative people are with their outfitting. I know this has been discussed somewhere before, but can't find the specific thread.

My main question is what would people like to see in a universal type pedestal???

I see the need for an upgrade in a pedestal for more modern conversions. I think adjust ability would be nice. Weight is another issue that comes to mind. Obviously comfort is key, as well as good fit. Safety, structural, functional but not to complex. What else do you guys think. Any and all IDEAS welcome!! Pictures are good to although I have seen many different setups in real life and on the web but would love to see more.

I am familiar with Bernie's outfitting, I have seen East Coast Canoes, some Team Etc. would love to see more pics of Team Etc., seen/ used Robson boats, seen some of Marko's setups, Drakkar, Fence Rail, etc...

Anybody of good pics of the LL pedestal?

How could these systems be improved upon? I am by no means promising a new mass produced pedestal I don't want to get people's hopes up. I plan on talking to various people about this more in depth. I also realize that alot of people like to make their own outfitting and I think that is really cool, but i think a good universal system would be awesome.

So what do you guys like, not like, what works, what doesn't work, any concepts you want to share? What are the pros and cons of your current outfitting

Thanks
Xmas

[jrsh92]

I use a lapbelt and thigh straps in my Atom, but I don't think the lapbelt would be appropriate to put in a universal saddle, it can be added later depending on what the user is paddling and how comfortable they are with it. I don't think giving someone a lapbelt by default as if it were always safe to be wearing it makes sense.
Other than that, my main thoughts are that the adaptability of thigh straps is very nice compared to a bulkhead.

[Todhunter]

Oops, I voted Bulkhead, but I don't paddle C1, that was for OC1, sorry.

[RodeoClown]

I have to say it really depends on the boat. I've had boats set up with a thighstrap/knee strap set up that I was really happy with, and have set up boats with the same thigh straps where I didn't need the knee strap but found I needed to add a lapbelt to keep from falling out. I think it also depends on what you're doing with the boat- freestyle vs. cruising vs. creeking. I want to be a light tighter and more committed in my playboat, while escapability is a higher priority in a creeker. I'll probably do a foam bulkhead in my creek boat when i get around to outfitting it.

I'd say the lesson for making a universal set up is to make it truly universal; a set up that can really be customized to the user, boat, and application.

[PAC]

Have to agree with RedeoClown... depends a lot on the boat.

Right now I have a mix of Team Etc, Fence post, just straps (cquirt with a suicide block) and foam bulk heads in my boats.

However, overall I like a bulkhead with or with out straps the most.... with ankle blocks (old age) and......

this is important to me ( )

.... no hip pads - I hate those darn things!

But then what do I know!?!?!?!?

[Larry Horne]

rodeo clown is right about different boats needing diffferent set-ups.
so i'm only talking about creekboats....

i'm a big fan of the Dagger pedestal with thigh straps and rigid knee straps...the rigid knee straps are essentially a bulkhead because they hold your knees absolutely solid and you don't have to touch them to get in/out. unlike a bulkhead though, they're easily adjustable. and allow full and easy access to the bow.
i like the adaptability and durability of the Dagger pedestal. once it's set up for you, swapping it to a new boat is easy and cost free.

The only problem i can think of is it's a little short for modern creek boats. It could probably be made a little lighter, but i don't really think it's heavy as is. my setup weighs 3 lbs less than the pyranha factory kayak setup. I wouldn't want to trade the durability for a few ounces.

the Drakkar pedestal is very sweet looking, but way too wide in the back, leaving no room for shoes. plus, i like my knees wide and feet close together, with toes pointing toward each other, like a tripod. with that wide Drakkar base, i can't quite get there. The Dagger, on the other hand, narrows down and my feet are able to "hook" around it.

I've given quite a lot of thought to making a pedestal as well. I think there is a need, but I haven't been able to come up with a way to have full adjustabililty without it becoming too complex and gadgety. gadgety = failure. hopefully you come up with something ablosutely bomber, light and versatile.

[sbroam]

...
Anybody of good pics of the LL pedestal?
...

From my Picasaweb gallery below.

[Bob P]

You missed what I use on all my closed and open boats: Thigh straps and knee straps.

[Craig Smerda]

I had to click "top secret"


Apparently not everyone contact cements themselves into their boats


I thought I was being innovative... and "different"

[CosmikDebris]

duct tape, cardboard, straps, beer cans, coozies, gorilla glue, contact cement, old t-shirt, and a pack of chewing gum.

[Larry Horne]

hey will, it sounds like you're making it more complicated than it needs to be

[sbroam]

Yabbut with all that he not only has his boat outfitted but he's set for a multi-day wilderness run. As long as the beer cans are *full*.

[markzak]

not a great pic, but this is my fence-rail conversion....

I LOVE the dagger saddle mostly because of the shape of the actual saddle and the way your feet can wrap around it ergonomically. The dagger saddle's comfort was a main selling point for me to take an Atom down the Grand Canyon.

[xmas0c1c1k1]

Thanks for all the input so far!!

What I'm hearing so far is the need to be adjustable, needs to be universal and customizable.

I like the comments about wrapping the toes around the dagger saddle. I hadn't really thought of that, but is important to note.

I would really like to hear more about the drawbacks of the systems you use like the fence post, bulkhead, Liquidlogic spine.

I have lots of personal experience with the dagger pedestal and know some of the drawbacks. One of the main drawbacks is connection in the back because its to short for newer designs. How do you all connect it in the back in newer boats? I put a rib in the back like it has in the front which works well but requires two extra holes which I don't mind, but isn't a good selling point. Would you think that just a spine that can run under the back pillar would be enough support? I know those pillars can wiggle out of place. what do you think is the best solution to this problem a rib, just structure of of rear foam pillar or something similar to the dagger set up with a bolt behind the cockpit rim?

A reminder I am not saying I am going to produce this saddle I am merely toying with the idea and I am at the very preliminary research stages of this.

I know first hand the difficulties of making something like this as I watched my dad go through the whole invention process to a patent and prototype and then could not get anyone to buy it or produce it. I know this product is for a very niche market, which makes it even more limited.

So far I am thinking of something alot like the dagger pedestal with some key changes and modifications mainly allowing it to be more suitable for modern kayak designs. I think for it to be marketable it needs to be ready to use out of the box. I know modifications will need to be done, but for instance if a boat company was to pick this product up and offer it in their boats (doubtful) it would need to be ready to go for demos and newbies. I think it was larry that said to stay away from gizmos and that is a good thought, but hard for me once my brain gets going. I think a good way to go would to have the basic pedestal and then offer "bolt on" additions for customizing it. Oh also do you like how the pedestal is a big plat or would you like to see more of just a backbone without the extra material.

I would love to pick some of yall's brains so I will probably pm some of you to chat. If you want to chat about things with me about ideas feel free to pm me.

If nothing else I will probably come up with a good document exploring C1 outfitting that could be added to this site.

Thanks
Xmas

[xmas0c1c1k1]

Bulkheads why or why not?
Hip hugger why or why not?