Do we need to be recognised?

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:14 pm

Coming from comments on the jackson outfitting thread that its nice for a major manufacturer to recognise us; do we need recognition?

Most kayakers look at us as either misguided fools or godlike dervishes of technique; both are quite "otherising" but at least the latter is flattering.

Most of the buttboaters who do own a canoe do so as a toy for their occasional entertainment, but don't want to take the challenge further than that...

The whitewater media industry (such as it is) doesn't want to know about canoeists unless we can hold our own with what the butt-boaters they feature are up to... and invariably not many of us are.

But the truth of the matter is do we need to change that. I don't think we do.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:32 pm

I don't believe we can change that. The tip of the spear in the sport of whitewater is the extreme side... and it's just not feasible to run some of the stuff kayakers are running.

However, somethings are equally as impressive the stuff kayakers are running.. ie a 100ft in a kayak vs 50ft in a canoe. A 50fter in OC1 is pretty much equally as impressive, at least for those that understand the dynamics of each craft. Also - 450ft per mile vs 300+ft per mile.

The sport is going to reach a point - where going big = too big. And i believe people will look toward the way of the canoe, as a way to 'go big' without 'going deadly'.

I say... paddle to impress. As a canoer... you aren't just paddling for yourself - your paddling for something bigger than yourself - should be paddling for the growth of the sport as well... and the best way to do that is to make your craft shine - every time your on the water. People will take notice, people are taking notice.

ian123 · Post by **ian123** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:40 pm

You need to be recognized by manufacturers so they ll produce the products we need to enjoy our sport.

Paddler · Post by **Paddler** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:20 pm

I agree with Ian, it's a shame that more new models of open boats or C-1 play or creekboats aren't popping out like they are in the kayak market.

Companies like esquif and blackfly are keeping c-boating relevant and not just recycling the same models that have been in production since the 90's. I understand it's fun to be part of a fringe sport that no one else gets or relates to, but there is a difference between being and individual and a hermit.

Bring on a c-1 specific creekboat, outfitting is nice, but hull design will be the big change in c-boating.

busterblue · Post by **busterblue** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:26 am

I would think that C1'rs who are proficient at doing their own conversions can go on indefinitely without any special industry recognition.

It's us open-boaters who I am more concerned for. The two big paddle shops in Portland continually pump out freshly minted kayakers. They are great places, but there is not much canoe-specific support. For example, all the help I've received for borrowing and testing boats has been through other generous, enthusiastic open-boaters. I'm lucky to live in a time when the community is active, but what will happen over the decades as folks move away or age out?

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:38 am

There are quite a few companies who recogise we exist if you want to order a boat from them to convert (or in the case of Big Dog, Robson and Jackson factory converted), several who've tried to work out what c-1 specific boat would sell well to us, and pretty much all of them have at least one C-specific boater on their teams...

The reason they're not making products to sell to us is that there isn't a big enough group such that any one boat would have sales that would justify the cost of development...

The money in making a C1 would be developing a boat that would appeal to pre-existing or beginning boaters and could be ready to go at a reasonable price point, in this respect Jackson offering their boats converted for £50 is bang on... Apart from their non-playboats being marginal at best (the hero boats would make good c1's in terms of stability, but they're slow and have very little in the way of glide even for a plastic boat).

Perhaps the best way to grow the sport would be to create a boat that tracks and glides well, feels stable and with outfitting that works out of the wrapper and which can be sold cheaply... Something that takes things from the improvements in both racing and rec boat design over the last 10 years?

I don't think that canoeing will ever be in danger of dying out... but it would be ridiculous to think that we can substantially grow as a sport, not when kayaking is easier to learn (and it is). There are lots of C-Boaters out there who only own a playboat, have realtively little interest in paddling serious rivers in their canoe, don't identify strongly with canoeing but who still have fun, maybe that's another angle that we can push to grow the sport.

But the idea that we need mainstream paddlesports to give us some kind of more concrete recognition to move forward or that we're not actually well recognised already is silly; Canoeists and Canoe companies are the people who have pushed us this far, and will have to be the people to push it further.

Edit: Just to point out this is a sleep deprived rambling mess of a post, stayed up to watch the aurora borealis from the top of one of the mountains and the cloud closed in defying all attempts for us to wait for it clearing.

Yukon · Post by **Yukon** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:59 am

Dont forget Bliss Stick they will sell boats with out ourfitting for the cboater

TheKrikkitWars · Post by **TheKrikkitWars** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:14 am

Yukon wrote:Dont forget Bliss Stick they will sell boats with out ourfitting for the cboater

Yup, as will Liquid Logic and Pyranha;

Going further Dagger Europe kindly offered to weld in a centre rail/saddle and strap attachement points of my choice on any of the UK moulded boats (as other than the nomad and mamba creek, they all have welded in stiffeners anyway, so it was little more hassle to add that than it is to produce one undrilled).

We're better off than we might think, though I've never bought a new boat, and thus never had the opportunity to take any of these generous people up on their offers.

hankrankin · Post by **hankrankin** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:19 am

FullGnarlzOC wrote:
I say... paddle to impress.

Thats not a serious statement is it?

TNbound · Post by **TNbound** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:13 pm

FullGnarlzOC wrote: I say... paddle to impress. As a canoer... you aren't just paddling for yourself - your paddling for something bigger than yourself - should be paddling for the growth of the sport as well... and the best way to do that is to make your craft shine - every time your on the water. People will take notice, people are taking notice.

Well, maybe.

I think it depends who you are trying to get into a canoe. If you want to convert experience kayakers, you probably want to paddle in a way that makes the harder runs look like a new kind of fun. If you are looking to get non-paddlers into a canoe, it might be better to paddle easier rivers while making them look downright fun and maybe even easy and safe. I know when I got into a canoe it was because I was, at the time, somewhat intimidated (read: frightened) by things above class III and thought a canoe would be a good excuse to just paddle easy stuff while making it more fun.

I think there are different ways to impress different people. Slalom racing can be as impressive as hucking 30 footers, just to different people.

Oh, yeah. Recognition would be cool, too, though I am not worried about it. There is a certain pride in explaining myself to people when they say "What kind of boat is that!"

Walsh · Post by **Walsh** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:35 pm

No.

The only valid reason to paddle, or engage in any other outdoor sport, is personal satisfaction and enjoyment with friends. Otherwise, it's a rather pointless activity.

There's nothing wrong with recognition, but for it to be a necessity or a goal is, at best, a distraction.

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:49 pm

I just want ppl to recognize that the boat is in fact not a kayak

TNbound · Post by **TNbound** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:09 pm

FullGnarlzOC wrote:I just want ppl to recognize that the boat is in fact not a kayak

Thus the "KAYAKING SUCKS" sticker on my C1.... One can only handle "neat kayak!" so many times.

Cheeks · Post by **Cheeks** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:02 pm

You can't have one without the other. I agree with you that companies are under no obligation to provide special consideration for cboaters or open boaters out of good will or charity, that would be a rather foolish business model and would probably lead to the CEO being sacked.

That said, those same companies will sell canoe oriented products if the canoe market is large enough to warrant it. And growing the market is two components. One is canoeists who want to grow the market getting more people into canoeing. Obviously someone might preach canoeing for different reasons, but this is one of them.

The other end of the spectrum is canoeing companies and to a lesser degree non-canoeing paddlesports companies marketing products to canoeists. I strongly feel that there are untapped markets into which canoes can be sold, and if people are buying canoes, companies will want to sell them, and if companies want to sell them, new products will be developed. It's that simple.

Mohawk is selling canoes into Europe right now. That's the kind of proactive approach that can actually make a dent in this industry, if properly marketed and executed.

AJ · Post by AJ » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:48 pm

I don't need to be recognized, but I do like setting someone straight that my boats are canoes, C1 and OC-1, not kayaks.

I still don't understand why ww canoe manufacturers don't come up with a business plan to sell canoes through kayak retailers? If kayak retailers can sell whitewater paddle boards of all things and make money, then they ought to be able to sell whitewater canoes. It seems to me that it would be a natural progression to go from a WW paddle board to WW canoe. Canoes would also be good for ex-extreme kayakers wanting to step their game down or bored kayakers wanting to learn a new challenge.

It is my understanding from Jackson that you can order a Jackson C1 today. I have a call in to Colorado Kayak Supply, a local kayak and paddle board retailer, to see if they will have a C1 demo setup this spring. If I can demo a Jackson C1 playboat and I like it (or can easily modify it to fit), I will purchase one and gladly support Jackson and CKS efforts.

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