High-Brace offside Recovery (or the elusive righting pry?)

[Acosi151]

Last week at the pool (imagine it.. 20 kayaks, one oc1) I get a pretty innocent question:

Accomplished Kayaker "so, how do you brace on this [off] side?"

Me newbie OC'er : stammering response "Well, you don't..... .... .... or I guess.. uh, you kind of pick your onside edge and ride a low brace when you think you may need one.. or I guess.. some guys can reach back up and do a pry on their onside as it comes around to hip-snap the boat back... but it's probably easier to do a high brace and a hip snap.... but it's kind of a rare move"

Accomplished Kayaker " "

Me newbie OC'er : " " paddling away to the other side of the pool... embarrassed.

So.. this little exchange has been bothering me... you'd think something as simple as a brace shouldn't be this hard to explain.
I spent a night checking out every youtube vid I could think of then the next night re-watching The Canoe Movie... and didn't see one offside flipping recovery... sure if you've got your paddle in the water with a vertical shaft you're connected and can overcome most predictable pushes to one side or the other.. but as a recovery move? Is this what people are talking about when they say pry and brace recoveries? That subtle push pull balance?

I'm only in my second season of oc1 so I don't have much to offer though I have a hard time imagining getting a paddle stroke off on my on side while losing it to my off side... The high brace recovery sort of makes sense as long as my paddle is in the water vertical already.. but what if I'm in the middle of the "catch" phase of a forward stroke when I start to lose it?

Does anyone know of some good video showing a pry or high brace recovery while losing it to the off side in "real" or "combat" conditions?

[jatakasawa]

I'm in the same boat! PUN INTENDED! I took my 'new' C1 down a flood stage local run yesterday and pretty much favored my on-side. In three laps I probably had 4-5 braces that put me from my side to upright....but I can't help but think I could have avoided falling over into the brace if I was more confident in my high-brace and righting pry.

Here's something I've been trying to work on. Transitioning from a high-brace to the righting pry. The theory is that if I fail my high-brace by not putting enough hip into it, my last ditch effort is to go from pulling on the paddle to pushing down on it and using the boat as the fulcrum.

The high brace is easier to get to from a forward stroke position but way less effective in pulling my onside knee down than the pry. The pry is just awkward and slow...and I've only ever really done it by accident and said, "wow, that's neat."

Of course..that's the theory.

The reality is that flips happen faster than my brain can process. My forward stroke is probably my best ally in staying upright and that's why you'll see me throw one every time I smash against a wave, hole, diagonal, reactionary...whatever.


If you ignore my long-winded nonsense (which I recommend on occasion) just take this one iota....anything in paddling can be worked on until you 'get it.' You can have a sick pry or high-brace if you practice your tail off and throw yourself sideways into a wave and throw that sucker. After 5-6 swims/rolls you'll get it. Then you'll develop that timing, muscle memory and auto-response thing that happens after mucho practice. That's what I intend to do.

[Larry Horne]

a cross forward has saved me a bunch of times from the slow flip. The fast flip is another story....just try to use the momentum to make it a fast roll.

welcome to canoeing.

[keez]

the "righting pry" works really well, but takes a ton of practice to get the movement instinctive.
i've a great video clip of one in action at the bottom of a waterfall, but unfortunately don't know how to load it.
paul and mark's book "thrill of the paddle" has a very good description of how to pull off the move.
i also agree with larry, that if you can't get the pry in, use the momentum to roll the boat.
geoff

[philcanoe]

A Cross Forward and Cross High Brace are indeed the most common as you (and Larry) stated, as well as a Cross-Side Sweep (forward and reverse).... but fall short of that requested middle of the offside stroke, which is what you asked about. In this case - two things come to mind.

First is that tail-end bit of an offside roll. Oh yeah... for sure .. ain't no way that I'm... but wait it's not the complete roll. It's just that way forward ending portion. Think about your onside roll (not that I have an offisde roll either) at the end you're in a low brace with the paddle way forward near parallel to the boat,and your head-face-forehead laying on the paddle blade... and then you finish it with hips or knee. Well you can do that part on the offside, and it's a-lot easier than you think. Especially in that part of the stroke you mentioned or asked about... in fact if you are doing a underwater recovery on a cross-stroke (the turn blade sideways - pushing forward ) and the boat goes to flip, then you are in the exact position needed. Just roll/flip/twist the low hand from vertical over onto the blade (allowing other hand to follow into end-of-roll position)- push head down - and down with opposite knee, finishing with your (low) head transfer arc back to center of boat.

Second - if you feel the boat going while playing, and you are on the offside. Especially if rotated to the stern (shoulders past center - to the stern). Then do a (offside) stern pry. It's pretty simple, although it certainly helps to have tried this before. What you're doing is using the gunwale as fulcrum, the water to load upon, and the top hand simply pulls (or levers) inward.... if you lean hard against this pull, then you righten the hull. Basically the lower hand is doing nothing - except holding or getting the shaft up against the gunwale. I typically open my lower hand, and push palm onto back of paddle shaft to get it started. In this way you can keep the fingers from getting smashed or pinched. This is one place it helps to be in a canoe as compared to a C1, as we have that chunk of wood up high to pry off of.

If you couple these with the standard cross froward, cross high-brace, and cross sweeps then you have righting potential at greater than 45 degrees forward, as well as greater than 45 degrees backwards. Basically in addition to the standard in-between range. Do these always work.. NO... But do they always fail... NO. And of course nothing is better than simply just stopping it from your onside, but when in need all hung out on your offside - these can/may/will work (and may be better, than doing nothing at all).

[TommyC1]

A forward stroke is as good as a brace.

That seems especialy true on my offside.

An onside righting pry has worked for me when my blade was all ready there. Can't remember it being succsessful otherwise.

[sbroam]

When I was primarily paddling slicy C-1s and constantly finding excuses to execute stern squirts, I found that a stern squirt initiated with a stern pry was an entertaining antidote to an offside flip - as I think Kent Ford said in the C-1 Challenge, if it won't keep you from flipping, at least you'll flip dynamically (or words to that effect). When I'd hop back into an open boat and start to flip the same way, I'd instinctively try that - often times it worked, but trying to stuff the stern of a full size open boat under water was more like pushing on a wall and sometimes those whatcha-ma-call-em rib meat muscles would complain A quick jab of a stern pry (instead of a fully wound up pry to kick off a stern squirt) can be fairly effective and less painful

[jharris]

It's hard to describe but one thing I've used with some success is a pry with the paddle angled so the power face is facing a bit upwards... it's kind of like the opposite of a sculling brace. As you push away from the boat the paddle is forced underwater. It doesn't do much on its own but it will help "reinforce" a hip snap and can stop some slow flips (like catching an edge after entering an eddy).
For faster flips (catching an edge on an eddyline, getting windowshaded) I usually don't mess around with that. Setting up right away and using my momentum to roll will get me back upright in a hurry, but attempting to brace will often fail then I need to take more time to set up and execute the roll.
I'm in a C1 though, in an OC since rolls take longer and put water in your boat I'd probably try to brace in tougher situations

[Acosi151]

ok.. so we're safe to say that my suspicions are confirmed right?

While moves like a righting pry do exist in theory and can be accomplished as either rudiments or flukes they don't actually exist in every day paddling, for anyone, regardless of skill level. Wes Gentry made the case for the onside low brace in the 2009 green race video (like it needed to be made).. but no equivalent offside recovery 'move' video exists it turns out...

I'm thinking righting prys and offside high braces are something like snake-roll spey casts in fly fishing... they're doable (and 'effin cool when they are done)... but no one uses a snake roll when they're actually trying to put a fly in front of a rising salmon... it's just not practical.

lots of eccentric river people on here right? gotta be mostly fly fishers me thinks... my analogy work?

[philcanoe]

No

A Cross Forward and Cross High Brace are indeed the most common as you (and Larry) stated, as well as a Cross-Side Sweep (forward and reverse).... but fall short of that requested middle of the offside stroke, which is what you asked about. In this case - two things come to mind.

First is that tail-end bit of an offside roll. Oh yeah... for sure .. ain't no way that I'm... but wait it's not the complete roll. It's just that way forward ending portion. Think about your onside roll (not that I have an offisde roll either) at the end you're in a low brace with the paddle way forward near parallel to the boat,and your head-face-forehead laying on the paddle blade... and then you finish it with hips or knee. Well you can do that part on the offside, and it's a-lot easier than you think. Especially in that part of the stroke you mentioned or asked about... in fact if you are doing a underwater recovery on a cross-stroke (the turn blade sideways - pushing forward ) and the boat goes to flip, then you are in the exact position needed. Just roll/flip/twist the low hand from vertical over onto the blade (allowing other hand to follow into end-of-roll position)- push head down - and down with opposite knee, finishing with your (low) head transfer arc back to center of boat.

Second - if you feel the boat going while playing, and you are on the offside. Especially if rotated to the stern (shoulders past center - to the stern). Then do a (offside) stern pry. It's pretty simple, although it certainly helps to have tried this before. What you're doing is using the gunwale as fulcrum, the water to load upon, and the top hand simply pulls (or levers) inward.... if you lean hard against this pull, then you righten the hull. Basically the lower hand is doing nothing - except holding or getting the shaft up against the gunwale. I typically open my lower hand, and push palm onto back of paddle shaft to get it started. In this way you can keep the fingers from getting smashed or pinched. This is one place it helps to be in a canoe as compared to a C1, as we have that chunk of wood up high to pry off of.

If you couple these with the standard cross froward, cross high-brace, and cross sweeps then you have righting potential at greater than 45 degrees forward, as well as greater than 45 degrees backwards. Basically in addition to the standard in-between range. Do these always work.. NO... But do they always fail... NO. And of course nothing is better than simply just stopping it from your onside, but when in need all hung out on your offside - these can/may/will work (and may be better, than doing nothing at all).

I wouldn't have spent the time to post this ... maybe there's a need to find better paddlers to learn from. Did you say ??? Second year paddler ???

[Acosi151]

No
.... Did you say ??? Second year paddler ???

yup

[philcanoe]

good question

[golder]

whatcha-ma-call-em rib meat muscles would complain

intercostals i believe they are called

[KNeal]

whatcha-ma-call-em rib meat muscles would complain

intercostals i believe they are called

Hmmm. And I was thinking they were either prime or spare.

A good friend is going to smoke up a batch for a gathering in a couple of weeks.

Are we still on-topic?

[Ben T]

try working on this skill in flat water.

swamp your boat and practice holding the boat so your offside gunwhale is under water. Try to balance on this edge and guard your self from flipping with an onside high brace. In white water I'd say there is a fine line between when this recovery stroke goes from being a draw stroke to being a forward stroke. guess it depends how your boat is aligned with the direction of flow