Creeks vs Bigger Water Techniques

[John Coraor]

Several posts have made a very good point about the nature and strength of the group you're paddling with impacting your attitude and thus your performance on a given run.

When I ran the Upper Yough, I was following John Sweet and Dave Demaree - it would have been tough to find a better pair of boaters to follow. With concise descriptions based on their extensive knowledge, I knew everything I needed to know about the line to follow before I even left the eddy.

That goes a long way toward building confidence and thus improving performance.

John

[Paddle Power]

I think there are some basic paddling positions i need to get ironed out, I was looking at pictures of my run and a lot of time my paddle shaft was not even close to vertical!! I dont have many pictures:

kabuki_blaze re your pics.
Picture #
1. your shaft may be fine as you are going left, but you look a bit like you're hanging out, and not paddling forward.
2. vertical shaft, forward stroke, looks good.
3. I'm not sure about you are doing here.
4. or here.
5. prying? should be forward stroke? offside/cross forward? If a pry, then work on the stroke dynamics.
6. hanging out? weight shift? looks like you should be doing a forward stroke to be stable and to turn left/straighten out.

[jrsh92]

For me, this photo, this photo & this photo (not me, A wee fellow called Kelvin) show all the positive traits you need to work towards for good creeking technique.

Where'd he get the red zoom?? That seems like the most important part of his technique to me

[kabuki_blaze]

Thanks again to everyone for their comments, VERY VERY helpful. The level was around 5-feet (I think), it was a little pushy I thought. Thanks Jscott for the info, you would know best about that boat.

I agree with the critique of my strokes, once I saw those pictures and my form, I was like "No wonder?" I could also see it in my eyes that I was completely out of it at that point and being very hesitant.

I will start practicing those creeks, cant wait for the Little/Big Sandy to start coming up!

If anyone finds a ring out there, let me know! Hopefully a little guy with a funny name doesn't find it at the bottom of the river and try to rule the world...

KB

[Bill M]

The big difference in your pictures and Josh's is the obvious aggressiveness displayed in his and the attitude of the boat as he eddys. I would change to the original length thwarts too. For me creeks are more satisfying but big water is a blast.
Bill

[philcanoe]

oh man you're from West -by God- Virgina.. you should know - Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.

never done the Cranberry, but from those pic's and having been on the L.Gauley... most likely just an off-day... don't fret everyone has them, unless the epics start becoming common place... as for stuff from the pic's - you may try getting more power/efficiency out of your top hand ...never saw the paddle near vertical,... so maybe try getting/stacking upper hand more over lower hand - with more of loading/pulling down, using a bit more upper body (torso rotation-using big muscle groups) ... this will help with pulling you to the paddle, instead of pulling the paddle through the water to you... which will also sortta-help make each-n-every stroke have a bit of a brace component... however really hard to tell much from stills though (photographer may have just missed those parts)

[Lengthy]

Just a quick note I don't think anyone mentioned. On big water it's usually obvious to speed up and drive into places but on creeks it seems to be less of a thought. Maybe it's because of trying to see over the edge before speeding up or thinking you don't really need the speed. I've found that if you go a little faster sometimes and carve turns instead of just spin you are much cleaner and drier especially when there's more drops to follow. It sounds like speed may be an issue since you said you were getting your edges grabbed. That's my 2 cents. I have way more creeking experience than big water although I did make it to the upper gauley this past weekend, sunday was pretty big. Cranberry is a great run with the easiest shuttle ever. Creeking is where it's at, in my opinion, stick with it.

[TheKrikkitWars]

Where'd he get the red zoom?? That seems like the most important part of his technique to me

I think he imported it himself at significant expense, I'm lead to believe that its the only red, wood outfitted zoom in the UK& europe; and one of only a thimblefull in the world

[fleckbass]

5 ft. is a beefy level for the Cranberry!

[Marc Evans]

Sammer Elias produced a nice informative piece on open boating creeky stuff. It is posted on Jan Dettmer's site. You might have a look at it. http://www.open-canoe.de/open-sucks/index.html

By the way, I'm prone to having bad days, but I always go back for more. Keep at it.

Marc

[yarnellboat]

Interesting thread.

I tend to paddle pretty low-volume rivers and work lots of eddies and waves, not really big-time creeking (class III+ river running), but more of a creeking style that I aspire too.

I paddled some bigger water recently, something that was a little nerve-racking initially, but once I got used to the river I found the bigger water a little boring. Yes, long swins through big rapids if you swim, but despite the look of the holes, the lines to avoid them were easy, and if you messed up, you just paddled hard, braced as necessary and rode it out.

Case-in-point in the video:
The Outrage takes a wet line, but fights through it; the Viper coasts an easy line (and others went even more conservatively left of the hole)... Once I got over the volume & push, the lines were boring. I guess the answer would be to take more creative, gutsy lines as you get to know the run, that would make things different, if you're OK with the consequences, but this was my first run on the river...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWwSyjzO8mY

Personally, I prefer lower volume and lots of eddies. To me the biggest difference is knowing your lines and back-up plans, and paddling the river eddy-to-eddy 20ft at a time, paddling with determination and being agressive (as the red Zoom).

Not sure the technique is really that different per se, if you're paddling something hard, it's the same stuff that will save your bacon on either type of river. It's more the mentality of how you dissect the river and moves, and which type of river you prefer.

I'll still try more bigger water, but to me I don't get the point in an OC, I'd rather zip around making eddies and drops on a busy little river than ride big wave trains around holes. Great Gonzo has posted a little video of the Thompson River's big water, I may try that run, but not sure how much we'd surf the bigger water in open boats.

http://www.vimeo.com/6749651

To me the creeking-style tests your skills harder, whereas the big water is just an adjustment to the scale of things.

Sound s like you're creeking may have been in fairly water. When trying new runs without a guide, I like to err on lower flows. A new-to-you river that's technical & at pushy levels is probably a common place to have an tough day!

Pat.

[kabuki_blaze]

Sammer Elias produced a nice informative piece on open boating creeky stuff. It is posted on Jan Dettmer's site. You might have a look at it. http://www.open-canoe.de/open-sucks/index.html

Marc

This is a great read! Thanks for passing it along. So in retrospect, I think I was rarely doing anything correct , live and learn, thanks for passing that along. And thanks again for everyones comments and help, this has been a great thread!

Just to top it off:

Here is a nice shot of me swimming and my friend in his XL13 smoothing it..


Me eating it, note rock on river right...
[img]http://www.boondoggledesigns.com/DOWNST ... 0114_2.jpg[/img]

Buddy in XL13:
[img]http://www.boondoggledesigns.com/DOWNST ... 0145_3.jpg[/img]

[Larry Horne]

A lot of it for me is how comfortable you are on the water. When you're comfortable it's easy to paddle aggressively, but if your boat feels too edgy, you'll be gripped and have a bad day.
if you are nervous glancing off of rocks, creeking will be tough because you'll be gripped, and defensive.
What helps me is to work hard in easy water..where i'm comfortable.
Ride up on the edge of rocks. Boof the edge of rocks. Splat rocks.
Float sideways up to rocks with nice piilows and ride the pillow around..fun stuff that will improve balance, loosen the hips, and make creeking much easier. it'll also help the roll

[2opnboat1]

The best way to learn to creek is do more of it. Dont be scared sometimes huck yourself wventhough you know you are going to crash (just pick your spots carefully. Crashing is bad thats how we learn to controll the unexpected.

[d_rat]

This has been a really great thread, informative to those of us who aren't yet at the level of many of the regular contributors (sometimes these threads can be a bit inaccessible). Lots of good information on how to take that next step, whatever it may be.

Too bad about the ring, Fritz. Maybe you can make a replacement out of royalex!