C-Forum

That was my thought also... (what Craig just said)

Craig - Thank J "not Elvis" Robbins - his idea / execution - I only posted them.

I have tried a bulkhead-only set up in 3 boats -

*Slasher (factory) - it worked. But... that 's the only C-1 I've ever had with a bulkhead only
*Zephyr (home made) - it sucked (should have built it on the Smerda pattern, didn't, never could roll it reliably, so I put in straps
*Spanish Fly - factory, but bought it second hand, couldn't get secure, so I added straps - bomber. Until this summer... I ripped out the bulkhead, repositioned and reglued - now I'm as secure as I ever was with straps. But... I had to pull out 2" of foam on the back of the seat to fit in it with my drysuit a couple of weeks ago. [That has foam under the shins/knees.] Still good to go.

I have my feet under the pegs - they do not tolerate any extended sitting with my heels up...

So, after all that yammering, I'd say :

1. you can probably tweak the bulkhead to work - make sure your knees are as far out as possible and you're deep enough in the "hooks", but...
2. straps can be an easy addition and can still be easy to exit

I use to love a lapbelt in the zoom. Seemed to help me start every move.

As Craig says, I find the bulkhead requires suprisingly little surface area contact with the thighs as long as you can push hard against the pegs. I initially thought the bulkhead that came in my new Viper 11 looked thin, but it is very firmly anchored to the thwart (a vertical bolt down through the thwart) and the foot pegs are well-anchored to the saddle itself. With this setup, I can use the balls of my feet to push myself into the bulkhead and stay extremely snug despite the fact that only a couple inches of thigh in contact with the foam. It turns out the bulkhead in my old Outrage worked the same way-the thigh hooks were big, but my legs only touched a small area when I was pushing hard with my feet. I put a lap belt in it and tried to strap myself in, but it didn't really help. The bottom line was using my feet to engage myself into the outfitting. When you bury the paddle blade and put your weight on it to accelerate, or brace, the force that is ultimately transmitted into the bulkhead needs to be supported by good foot contact to maintain the pressure on the bulkhead and thus the drive. Using your feet to lock in also lets you bail easily if you need to-even when I'm in tight enough to hand roll, I can slip right out just by "releasing" my foot pressure. I would entertain a lap belt for really rowdy surfing to back me up in case a foot came off a peg, but I'm pretty confident of staying in with foot pressure and a solidly-anchored bulkhead.

Wayne, what part about bulkheads don't you like? Or what do you prefer about the straps?

I'll admit the only thing I liked about my Quake was the straps. It was easy to get good and snug, however it had the limitation of not being able to jump in/out of the boat quickly, which is something I think is important for creekin.

The Option bulkhead and the one in my Prelude are two different animals. The Prelude's is very loose vs very snug in the Option, but both are easy enough to get in/out of.

For me, the Option's bulkhead is similar to straps since I don't feel the need to push to hard to stay in, though it certainly helps if you're rolling a lot/getting beaten down.


If you really want to try straps in an Option, I've got one of the old Dagger outfitting plate things. It is in my C1 playboat now, but I could probably be persuaded to pass it on...

my thigh/leg hooks fit me snugly all the way around... one thing I also always add is an additional 3" thick piece on the front (bow) side of each one for additional 'bite' that covers my legs getting closer to my knees and it really helps keep them in position. I've found over the years that if you set up the bulkhead for a drysuit and liner come summertime I only have to one-click up the footpegs and I'm still snug as a bug in a rug.

Fancy version... (this took some time to fit)



Simpler version... (light grey foam)


frankly if you aren't pushing on the pegs you aren't locking into nor are you snug enough in the bulkhead for it to really work properly. when I'm just cruising along or on the flats I take my feet off the pegs to stretch and relax them... but when it comes time to lock back into the bulkhead the feet go right back on the pegs.

foam is so early 90's.

Besides being cheap and easy for builders, the only advantages I see to a bulkhead are;
they are easy to get in and out of and they hold your legs well laterally.

I think straps can be done in a way that's as easy to get in and out as a bulkhead (without all the fancy bungee cords tha Yee has).
And I know that you can have your legs held laterally. most strap setups i've seen are lacking in both areas.

with straps i think you can be more (yes more) secure and comfortable. no matter what you happen to be wearing or weighing at the moment.


Boat builders are dropping the ball big-time by putting one size fits one outfitting in their boats. Do they not want anyone test driving their boats?

Larry Horne wrote:Boat builders are dropping the ball big-time by putting one size fits one outfitting in their boats. Do they not want anyone test driving their boats?

which one's Larry?

the kayak manufacturers?

with PE canoes... our options are rather l'imited.

how much extra would people be willing to pay for a drop in plate system that was designed for (came with) a traditional saddle and strap set-up that they'd still have to shim for a perfect fit and drill holes in their boats to utilize? how many people have been willing to pay for your C1 conversion set-up... which is by all accounts extremely nice?

Larry's C1 set up for some perspective...

http://www.cboats.net/cforum/viewtopic.php?t=7963131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://picasaweb.google.com/Marclamena ... directlink#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

in open canoes... all that 90's style foam just works... well... once you get it fit to yourself that is.... also all that foam displaces about 8-10 gallons of water and at 8lbs per gallon... well... that's just one more reason you'll never see straps in any of my boats.

no offense meant Larry but if I had to loosen/undo all of those straps... get out... get back in and tighten everything back out every time I needed to dump water out of an open boat... I'd quit boating or stick to boring stuff.

Here's my strap setup in the L'Edge. Totally solid

dam Smurf, that looks NF Payette bomber.


As for adjustable, snug outfitting, I think that needs to be a consideration, at least for demo boats. Now if only I could think of a good system, I'd make millions...

Craig Smerda wrote: no offense meant Larry but if I had to loosen/undo all of those straps... get out... get back in and tighten everything back out every time I needed to dump water out of an open boat... I'd quit boating or stick to boring stuff.

non taken, but I don't need to loosen anything to get out, and getting back in is two snaps. but that'a c1 without the luxury of space and convenience of being able to push into the setup w/my feet.
..in an open boat it could easily be done in a way that requires no hands.

Craig Smerda wrote: in open canoes... .... also all that foam displaces about 8-10 gallons of water and at 8lbs per gallon...

got a point there.

Craig Smerda wrote:

Larry Horne wrote:Boat builders are dropping the ball big-time by putting one size fits one outfitting in their boats. Do they not want anyone test driving their boats?

which one's Larry?

the kayak manufacturers?

Kayak manufacturers? actually it would be a good idea to follow their lead. although they've got at least 15 years on you guys..
ha, I bet kayakers would react in a real positive way if it required 13 hours of cutting and shaping just to get into a new boat. dancer days are here again..

Craig Smerda wrote: how much extra would people be willing to pay for a drop in plate system that was designed for (came with) a traditional saddle and strap set-up that they'd still have to shim for a perfect fit and drill holes in their boats to utilize? how many people have been willing to pay for your C1 conversion set-up... which is by all accounts extremely nice?

dude, you don't shim straps! no wonder you hate em!

No need to get fancy and make it drop in or interchangeble. it could be very simple and cheap. you just need to open up and think about it. You can figure it out. I would, but i don't have the passion for open boats, or the time for anything
i know...talk's cheap.

..and thanks.

Smurfwarrior wrote:Here's my strap setup in the L'Edge. Totally solid

Did someone say - strap-on?

A little lube DOES help.

...13 hours of cutting and shaping...

Holy frack! I must be doing something wrong.

Wayne,

I have the exact same boat as you (even the color) and it was my first bulkhead setup. Hip blocks really locked me into this outfitting and made hand rolling really easy in the Option.

Adjusting the foot pegs seems to compensate for what I am wearing, even though I slide my feet under the pegs (keeping the balls of my feet on the pegs doesn't really work for long runs for me).

The first adjustment I made to the stock Option outfitting was to lower the seat slightly (3/4") and cut about 1" off of the back of the pedestal. I also felt that the initial bulkhead did not lock me in until I was able to sit lower and farther back, allowing my knees to sit deeper.

Don't give up on the bulkhead yet. The displacement of water is a huge benefit on big stuff or when getting side surfed.

Are you falling out, or just feeling loose?