C-Forum

I'm far from having a perfect forward stroke, but one thing that really helped me is to practice the stroke movements in front of a mirror (with or without a paddle). I found that with a mirror you really see if you actually are doing what you are supposed to be doing (i.e. shoulder/torso rotation, hand placement, etc…). Once the movement looked good in the mirror, I practiced this (still in front of the mirror) until it felt natural and muscle memory set in. Hope this helps.

... how did you get a mirror to float alongside of you? (just kidding!)

You could try taking out your video camera to the flatwater and just tape yourself paddling around.. then critique.. change.. do it again... and again.

My best suggestion would be to go to a slalom race. Watching someone like Kaz, Dana and a handful of other really good slalom racers techniques can be a great free lesson. Chances are you are going to find that people are more than willing to help you out. (Although every time I ask Kaz for a tip he tell's me to paddle harder...huh!)

What Craig says about the video camera is so true.

I have an awesome forward stroke about 99.5% of the time, the other 0.5% someone either takes a picture or videotapes me

Spend lots of time on flatwater. You can work on your stroke without thinking about anything else. Extreme rotation is good on flatwater. It builds muscle memory. The harder the water I paddle, the more my paddling falls apart. If rotation is instinctual, at least I should be rotating a bit in IV+ water.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is "all power stops at the knees". Pulling past the knees in anything but the longest of boats is going to cause the boat to rotate away from the paddle side. This is where rotation helps as it is about the only way to get your paddle stroke forward. Leaning forward works for some people, but again, this will be less effective the larger the paddler and the smaller the boat.

A number of people have mentioned "Drill Time" I think it is still the best thing out there. I really like the one stroke acceleration drill. With a single stroke, on flatwater, see how far you can go in a straight line.

Martyn

I agree, a lot of good tips have been given but stoping the power at the knee is a pretty integral part of an effiecient forward stroke. Especially in a short oc-1. Do you live in canada? Friends with cline? If so, I camped with you at nationals, how are you?
cheers.
sean

Ed. Note: This comment is only applicable to C1 race boats or small volume cruisers.

I noticed one thing yesterday, as I was enjoying the still-semi-high-water. I almost always lean the boat to my offside when I'm doing my power stroke - and in the process the stern cuts under the water. When the stern goes down, the bow comes up! <DOH!>

So it's just a matter of timing the lean to coincide with the dipping of the bow.

Don't ask me what happens with the OC1, but then it doesn't particularly matter with big volume.

I just read this thread through: ..granted I only know slalom boats, but I was amazed to read so many prior comments without a word about weight shift. I'm a lefty by choice/long practice, an occasional righty by necessity (or self discipline). The thing I notice immediately when I switch sides is lacking that subtle weight-shift/edge that unconsciously goes with every forward stroke. Believe me I have spent many hours up & down the flat canal sworn "never to do pry" & trying to keep a constant distance from the bank(s). It is the ultimate discipline for staying straight. That slight weight shift -- which subtly alters the submerged shape of the hull and edge, is what saves me from wasting energy on draw at the start or pry at the end. The "Perk" is the utlimate "forcing" of this effect, but weight-shift/J stroke maximizes the forward momentum with just the slight weight-shift tweak to keep it straight.

Incidentally, Foote is an OC paddler, which I for the most part am not; in my humble observation, his ideas may work fine for OC's, but do not necessarily carry over to decked boats, which have quite different hull dynamics.

As for plastic flip-monkey boats __ does it even matter????

Well, Unicorn, now you know why us slalom boat owner-wanna-be-racer wannabe's struggle so much in our boats to keep our boats pointed in a general direction (at least I DO ). I watched Davey Hearn cruising around just using the forward stroke with the "j" stroke and he does that subtle lean that you describe. I tried to mimic what he was doing, but when I rolled back up I realized that I just don't get it ! Oh well, that's why I have such a strong off-side stroke .

It's good to see you posting back here on the board. It's been a while. Recently, someone was asking advice about c-2 outfitting and rolling and that reminded me of one of your posts about rolling c-2 with hands only. I STILL want to see pics of that .

KNeal

Interesting. The person who initially taught me to paddle was a c1er, he emphasised that it was possible to incorporate (onside) lean to correct the natural turn to the offside. I've tried to use this in my OC, but I've been unsuccessful in consistently being able to use the lean to correct my forward stroke. I think it's working and then suddenly it feels like i fish-tail to the offside, and I have to sadly do an ugly pry to bring it back.

Granted, I've not really given much thought to weight xfer at this point, and that may well affect it.

Definately watch "Drill Time". Another good one is "Long Distance Canoe Racing Techniques & Training", it's a flatwater video but has a real good section on the forward stroke.

This afternoon while paddling my OC-1 for the 1st time in over a year, I thought about my strokes. It occured to me that attaining teaches me a lot about the effectiveness of my strokes. So paddle upstream.

J's & pries were mentioned. The folks who helped me with my flatwater paddling got me away from too many correction strokes. Since most, if not all corrective strokes reduce the speed of the boat, I've learned to anticipate & switch sides to correct or alter the course of the boat. My stern partner tells me that when I make longer strokes (extend further prior to the catch as opposed to bringing the power phase further back) the boat picks up speed.

Mike W.

I swear--it was all "Drapes". I just threw my hands up!!

Track him down & you can do it too.....

KNeal wrote:Well, Unicorn, now you know why us slalom boat owner-wanna-be-racer wannabe's struggle so much in our boats to keep our boats pointed in a general direction (at least I DO ). I watched Davey Hearn cruising around just using the forward stroke with the "j" stroke and he does that subtle lean that you describe. I tried to mimic what he was doing, but when I rolled back up I realized that I just don't get it ! Oh well, that's why I have such a strong off-side stroke .

It's good to see you posting back here on the board. It's been a while. Recently, someone was asking advice about c-2 outfitting and rolling and that reminded me of one of your posts about rolling c-2 with hands only. I STILL want to see pics of that .

KNeal

Unicorn,

Can you expand in more detail about "that subtle weight-shift/edge that unconsciously goes with every forward stroke?"

Am I correct that the preferred method is to lean the boat slightly during the forward stroke - to put a chine in the water that will help make the boat track? Or, is there something else involved?

I do try to plant my on-side chine in the water during longer stretches using the forward stroke. It helps with tracking.

I have also tried leaning to the off-side during my forward stroke. Sometimes it seems that the offside chine carve can actually steer the boat towards towards my on-side.

Which side should I be tilting towards during the forward stroke? I know that the side tilt needed to deal with current will impact this, but I mean as a general statement, if there is one.

Sometimes I think I tilt the boat just slightly to the offside, and can skate the boat towards the paddle. The chines are not tracking at all. Is that what we are talking about?

Depending on what a "flip-monkey boat" is, I think it does matter. My playboats are where I am learning to really paddle - when I screw up in the Groove, I know it!

Bob P: What's this about the stern cutting underwater! I want more info on that, too.

All responses welcome.

I have two questions related to all this forward stroke stuff.

I paddle one of them flip-monkey boats (a g-force) and it takes a lot of corrections to keep it in a straight line. Typically I alternate on and off-side strokes and that tends to keep it pretty straight. Or I do a J. I try to stay away from the pry unless things are just getting too out of control.

I have the problem that although I tend to keep the bow pointed in a straight line, the boat drifts/slides towards my onside over time. When paddling flats I inevitably end up hugging the left bank (my onside). Anyway to fix this? Clearly I'm wasting some energy in this sideways translation.

The second thing is with the short 'to the knee' stroke. I find that it is much easier to make attainments using the very short and rapid strokes and that they require very few corrections. However, I tend to burn-out my arm muscles and get winded with these quick bursts of energy. I have a feeling I am not engaging my torso as I should as I increase my stroke rate. On flat water I burn up so quick that I might as well take longer strokes and make more corrections. 6 of 1, 1/2 of 12 the other... Anyway to counter this and develop more endurance and maintain a higher stroke rate?

Thanks,
Dave

I started in an open boat and got accustomed to long strokes - both reaching way out in front and carrying it back behind me. Not necessarily good form, but I think that carrying the stroke past your knees does not have as much of a penalty in a longer boat (think that was mentioned before).

Then, from suggestions and the Kent Ford videos, I started keeping the "power" out in front (not bringing it past my knees) while getting lots of rotation to engage the torso muscles instead of the "puny" arm muscles.

When I got into C-1s, that still worked fine, but those boats were still pretty long (Cascade, Slasher). As I moved into shorter boats, I found that the same long strokes, caused the boat to bob and pearl. For me, the challenge in a short boat is to keep the arms straight and use the torso while also keeping the stroke short enough to keep the boat level - it feels very awkward to me and I end up using too much "arm". That was one of the reasons I sold my shortest boat (Ultra-Clean) and moved into a boat that is long enough for me to stroke "naturally" (a Score).

I'm not sure what the ideal stroke is for a "river-flip-monkey" boat... The short boats give you no help in the way of tracking, so you either waste a lot of energy correcting, use a lot of crossforward strokes (hard to keep the bow up...), or discover the elusive perfect stroke...

Scott

I know in alot of the OC-1's it helps to paddle an onside arc. Most I've paddled will do this (although the Outrage doesn't seem to like to)...it seemed to work in my delirious the little bit I was out in it.
Mikey B

A couple of brief thoughts....

There is a concept I have heard of, but not overly investigated about paddling against the arc. I believe it is basically saying that in many boats your direction of travel is not actually the driection your bow is pointed in, but slightly off that. This may explain, jdschall, why you end up hugging the bank on your onside, although I thought the concept was that you actually ended up travelling slightly more towards your off-side (I might be wrong in this though). Something to consider/investigate, anyway.

Also, one of the points emphasized in Solo Playboating is that a pry is not necessarily an extremely inefficient correction stroke, although it is generally less efficient thatn a J, when executed properly close to the hull of the boat.

I also agree that attainments are a great way of demonstrating your stroke efficiency - and one I always struggle at, especially in very narrow eddies where any loss of tracking is a real problem.

Unicorn - please expand on this weight shift/edge technique. I've not heard that before and I am always looking for improvements in both teaching methods and personal paddling.

Cheers