is it just me? do any of you (righties) have trouble moving left in pushy, turbulent water (class 4 to 5)? if there aren't eddies or large areas of slack water i seem to spin out, or i just can't get any left momentum. i have entered many a hole do to this lack of talent! i can't blame the boat. i think i'm probably just nutting up and not paddling left enough. i'm working on that, but i thought some of you might have some tips...
other than the obvious..." run class four left sweepers with giant holes on the bottom right. over and over and over and over."
thanks
righty no go lefty
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Larry Horne
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righty no go lefty
Larry
which side of the boat are you taking your strokes on?
if you're trying to make a big ferry to the left, and you're paddling on the right, you're going to have a lot of difficulty.
Make sure you're feeling super comfortable on your cross-forward stroke, and then use it the entire way across the river. It'll keep your ferry angle closed, and will continually provide you with forward momentum.
a good exercise i often do is to force myself to paddle on my off-side in easier class 2-3 rapids... always force yourself to paddle on the inside of your carve - in easier rapids you should be able to work on this, and even if you screw up, there's no worries downstream. it'll build balance and confidence.
good luck!
-allan
if you're trying to make a big ferry to the left, and you're paddling on the right, you're going to have a lot of difficulty.
Make sure you're feeling super comfortable on your cross-forward stroke, and then use it the entire way across the river. It'll keep your ferry angle closed, and will continually provide you with forward momentum.
a good exercise i often do is to force myself to paddle on my off-side in easier class 2-3 rapids... always force yourself to paddle on the inside of your carve - in easier rapids you should be able to work on this, and even if you screw up, there's no worries downstream. it'll build balance and confidence.
good luck!
-allan
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chuck naill
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strokes
I watched a couple of old Kent Ford videos that helped me ferry these smaller boats. At least in 1989 he taught that correcting from the stern was more efficent. He highly emphysized that our strokes power should come from the torso not the arms. I have found that as my strokes became more efficent and used the stern strokes to correct, my ferrying improved. I also think that staying over the top of the boat made the boat much faster.
One thing that is an issue fro C-1's is that they are slower to start than a kayak. Kent taught getting the boat up to speed before getting into the main current then doing a "j lean as you ferried across.
Since watching these videos, I work on stuff in flat water between trips, plus it is good exercise.
Chuck/Tennessee
One thing that is an issue fro C-1's is that they are slower to start than a kayak. Kent taught getting the boat up to speed before getting into the main current then doing a "j lean as you ferried across.
Since watching these videos, I work on stuff in flat water between trips, plus it is good exercise.
Chuck/Tennessee
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Larry Horne
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i'm not having trouble with ferries. it's no problem if there's an eddie or slack water, i can just catch the slack water, turn-around then ferry to river left.
it's the big pushy wave trains and screaming left turns that are giving me grief.
i'm talking about going downstream, boat pointed dowstream/left, trying to get left. seems easy!
it's the big pushy wave trains and screaming left turns that are giving me grief.
i'm talking about going downstream, boat pointed dowstream/left, trying to get left. seems easy!
Larry
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Sir Adam
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I haven't seen you paddle...
I haven't seen you paddle, but I'd venture to guess you may be leaning to your right as you go through the rapid (hedging your bets that if you start to go, it' will be towards your on-side where you can brace!), therefore the boat may be less "flat" than normal and may be carving back to your right as you paddle (depending on boat design), or at the very least keeping you going a bit straigher (to the right is easy, just J or rudder, of course).
So, two things to try:
1) Really concentrate on keeping the boat FLAT and NOT leaning to your on-side.
2) To go LEFT try paddling with sharp, hard, short strokes right at your bow going out a bit...this should help drive the boat left a bit more.
To help #1 I found what worked best is either a) paddling "tippier" boats (then my "normal" boat felt more stable, so I was more comfortable keeping it "flat") or b) paddle in some more difficult water...so what looks big now doesn't. The Ottawa works well
<gulp>.
So, two things to try:
1) Really concentrate on keeping the boat FLAT and NOT leaning to your on-side.
2) To go LEFT try paddling with sharp, hard, short strokes right at your bow going out a bit...this should help drive the boat left a bit more.
To help #1 I found what worked best is either a) paddling "tippier" boats (then my "normal" boat felt more stable, so I was more comfortable keeping it "flat") or b) paddle in some more difficult water...so what looks big now doesn't. The Ottawa works well
<gulp>.Keep the C!
Adam
Adam
ok, two things here pop into my head...
the first is boat angle, and the second boat position.
even if you're pointing downstream, you should still try to be paddling on the inside of your arc. so as you are moving to the left, you should be paddling cross-forward, with a left-tilt or flat boat - as adam said earlier, be careful not to favour your onside tilt. If you're having problems making it across the current, it's very very possible that your boat is just too slow... in that case, turn yourself around so you are facing upstream, and ferry. A ferry need not be started from an eddy.
also, on a screaming left hand turn, where are you setting up to enter the turn? it is common for people to setup on the left side of the river, and then to try to take the turn sharply and to the inside. however, this leaves you without any momentum. try coming into the turn on the right bank, and then driving across the current earlier on. this will allow you to cross the grain, and keep your momentum moving left. (think of the line a race car driver takes through a turn - starts outside, hits the inside corner at the turn's apex, and then finishes on the outside)
cheers,
-allan
the first is boat angle, and the second boat position.
even if you're pointing downstream, you should still try to be paddling on the inside of your arc. so as you are moving to the left, you should be paddling cross-forward, with a left-tilt or flat boat - as adam said earlier, be careful not to favour your onside tilt. If you're having problems making it across the current, it's very very possible that your boat is just too slow... in that case, turn yourself around so you are facing upstream, and ferry. A ferry need not be started from an eddy.
also, on a screaming left hand turn, where are you setting up to enter the turn? it is common for people to setup on the left side of the river, and then to try to take the turn sharply and to the inside. however, this leaves you without any momentum. try coming into the turn on the right bank, and then driving across the current earlier on. this will allow you to cross the grain, and keep your momentum moving left. (think of the line a race car driver takes through a turn - starts outside, hits the inside corner at the turn's apex, and then finishes on the outside)
cheers,
-allan
boatin
I hear that, it tends to spin you out. The reason it spins you out is because you dont have the strong crossbow stroke there when you need it. If you were a kayak, you could just hit a big left stroke and you wouldnt spin out. But it's hard to hit those solid crossbows when you are in big wave trains. After all, who wants to be floating into huge waves while leaning upstream on your crossbow?
But then again, that's probably what you want to be working on. I know that when I stop doing slalom and instead do more rec boating, my crossbow gets weak. Creeking teaches you to fear it (at least it does me) because you often dont want to be leaning on a crossbow hard in shallow water. That's disaster.
Yet you do need a strong crossbow for those ferries you discuss. I have always found slalom works for me, but maybe just consciously working on it when you float sideways into waves can do the trick. Just float downstream facing river left (if you are a rightie) into big waves . . . that aint easy for anyone! Let alone getting some power while doing it!
Alden
But then again, that's probably what you want to be working on. I know that when I stop doing slalom and instead do more rec boating, my crossbow gets weak. Creeking teaches you to fear it (at least it does me) because you often dont want to be leaning on a crossbow hard in shallow water. That's disaster.
Yet you do need a strong crossbow for those ferries you discuss. I have always found slalom works for me, but maybe just consciously working on it when you float sideways into waves can do the trick. Just float downstream facing river left (if you are a rightie) into big waves . . . that aint easy for anyone! Let alone getting some power while doing it!
Alden
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Larry Horne
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Larry Horne
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alden- just re-read your post. you hit it on the head- it's the POWER that is missing! when i'm going through a wave train with the boat pointed left,(and i'm most likely leaning slightly right as sir adam said) it is hard to get a really strong cross forward stroke in. sure i throw a cross forward here and there, but they are weak at best. and i have not been working on that so much, not the way you suggested. the stuff i've been working on; hitting holes and waves on your off side ( boat angled right) and using cross forward strokes to go straight through big waves, is totaly different.
thanks!
thanks!
Larry
saddle position
Larry,
i've thought a lot about this, and all the above comments are relevant, but i think one of the most important factors is saddle position. for most of the current creek boat designs, boofing and turning are heavily influenced by the position of the saddle. i think of it as two separate axes of rotation (actually 3, like an airplane: pitch, yaw, and roll) the two important ones are pitch (boofing and backendering) and yaw (turning side to side). if a righty paddler spins out to the left while paddling to the left in big water, you should move your seat back just about an inch or two. this should give you more leverage with a j stroke to keep the boat tracking on these moves (controlling the yaw). you have to be careful though, because this can affect the front to back balance (the pitch) and worsen your ability to boof. it's kind of paradoxical. for most small conversion creek boats, the farther forward the seat, the easier it is to boof (less of a lever arm out front to lift up off the lip), but having the seat far forward leaves a large lever arm in the back for yaw forces, so when you put the boat sideways and try to cut across current in big water, the current takes the large lever arm of the stern and spins you out. in some boats, you can't reconcile the perfect pitch and yaw positions. the good yaw control is too far back for boofing, or vice-versa. One of the great things about the blunt is the centered pitch position and the centered yaw position match almost exactly. for boats that don't have this fortunate design feature, you can experiment with different saddle positions and different weight distributions (throw rope and rescue kit up front or in back) to see if it will work. the other option that i use is an adjustable saddle, that i can move back an inch or two for big water, and move forward (to the good boof position) for steep low volume stuff. hope this helps.
jay ditty
i've thought a lot about this, and all the above comments are relevant, but i think one of the most important factors is saddle position. for most of the current creek boat designs, boofing and turning are heavily influenced by the position of the saddle. i think of it as two separate axes of rotation (actually 3, like an airplane: pitch, yaw, and roll) the two important ones are pitch (boofing and backendering) and yaw (turning side to side). if a righty paddler spins out to the left while paddling to the left in big water, you should move your seat back just about an inch or two. this should give you more leverage with a j stroke to keep the boat tracking on these moves (controlling the yaw). you have to be careful though, because this can affect the front to back balance (the pitch) and worsen your ability to boof. it's kind of paradoxical. for most small conversion creek boats, the farther forward the seat, the easier it is to boof (less of a lever arm out front to lift up off the lip), but having the seat far forward leaves a large lever arm in the back for yaw forces, so when you put the boat sideways and try to cut across current in big water, the current takes the large lever arm of the stern and spins you out. in some boats, you can't reconcile the perfect pitch and yaw positions. the good yaw control is too far back for boofing, or vice-versa. One of the great things about the blunt is the centered pitch position and the centered yaw position match almost exactly. for boats that don't have this fortunate design feature, you can experiment with different saddle positions and different weight distributions (throw rope and rescue kit up front or in back) to see if it will work. the other option that i use is an adjustable saddle, that i can move back an inch or two for big water, and move forward (to the good boof position) for steep low volume stuff. hope this helps.
jay ditty
righty no go lefty
Larry, I saw you paddle a few times this winter, in fact one time into the hole below the hole that ate chicago in exactly the sort of circumstance you described. I think your cross draws are plenty strong enough and you are comfortable enough on your off side. I think Allan hit it right on the head when he asked how you were setting up the turn. In the case of the specific hole mentioned above you went left far earlier then i would have liked to because of this you had to back off the power for a couple of strokes and then try to reaccellerate while dropping down the approach slide to avoid the hole. In c-1 itis harder to accelerate the boat straight then in a kayak and you are far more exposed to turbulence while dropping sideways. 9 times out of ten this is how boaters will run something like this because it is natural to want to avoid hazards. If instead you stay right of current and give yourself room to really get a couple of power strokes and get your line set so you that even if you have to miss a stroke you will have your trajectory set this can really help to keep out of trouble. The first time i saw Norwood basically set up for a move by almost washing into the rocks on the right with current going right-(first move at mushroom) i didn't understand, but he made the eddy on the left and i didn't because i wanted to stay away from the right rocks so i entered without the set trajectory. after a number of such occurrences i began to see the light.
Now if somebody could just teach a righty to rock boof right....
Now if somebody could just teach a righty to rock boof right....
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swriverstone
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Warning: A slalom racer's perspective!
One very important point for offside ferries: to paddle a C-1 in whitewater in general, you've got to be (literally) **just as strong** on your offside as you are on your onside. If you think that's impossible, you just haven't worked your offside enough!
When you plant your offside forward stroke (especially on an offside ferry) you've got to be leaning way out there. You've got to be comfortable enough to put almost all your weight on that offside catch. You also need to be extended, with the blade as far forward as possible, so you can use a combination of offside sweeps and forward strokes.
Alternately, a stern draw on your offside will work wonders. In effect, you're creating a rudder (on your offside) at the back end of the boat---the current pushes this rudder which tends to turn your bow upstream. But this only works if you really get your stern draw way back there (not right beside your cockpit).
Finally, it really helps a lot to have a boat with some hull speed!
I've always said that you're fighting a losing ballgame paddling a 6-foot boat as a C-1. If you've never paddled a longboat (e.g. something longer than 9-10 feet), you don't have a clue what you're missing in terms of greater hull speed---which allows you to do things you wouldn't think of in a short boat!
Scott
PS - I just noticed my avatar---that shot was taken at the beginning of an offside ferry---that's how extended you should be at the catch of each stroke!
One very important point for offside ferries: to paddle a C-1 in whitewater in general, you've got to be (literally) **just as strong** on your offside as you are on your onside. If you think that's impossible, you just haven't worked your offside enough!
When you plant your offside forward stroke (especially on an offside ferry) you've got to be leaning way out there. You've got to be comfortable enough to put almost all your weight on that offside catch. You also need to be extended, with the blade as far forward as possible, so you can use a combination of offside sweeps and forward strokes.
Alternately, a stern draw on your offside will work wonders. In effect, you're creating a rudder (on your offside) at the back end of the boat---the current pushes this rudder which tends to turn your bow upstream. But this only works if you really get your stern draw way back there (not right beside your cockpit).
Finally, it really helps a lot to have a boat with some hull speed!
I've always said that you're fighting a losing ballgame paddling a 6-foot boat as a C-1. If you've never paddled a longboat (e.g. something longer than 9-10 feet), you don't have a clue what you're missing in terms of greater hull speed---which allows you to do things you wouldn't think of in a short boat!Scott
PS - I just noticed my avatar---that shot was taken at the beginning of an offside ferry---that's how extended you should be at the catch of each stroke!
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yarnellboat
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Larry,
I don't have any new advice, but I need to process this and clarify a few things for myself...
We're talking about heading downstream and crossing the current to the left: paddling on the right in pushy water and making it across over to the left. So, I'll ignore the talk about your strokes and ferrying (other than the option of turning upstream and starting to ferry as an alternative).
I agree that crossing the grain (i.e., setting up on the right to make the left) is key. And I agree that using offside strokes instead of onside stern corrections can help you hold your line and maintain your hull speed.
But something about tilt confuses me:
Another option when wanting to keep on the power strokes on your right, instead of using offside strokes, would be to tilt onside/right and paddle against that arc. However, people identified that as a potential problem -- possibly carving you farther right/downstream and causing you to miss your target. Shouldn't you be able to tilt to your onside and just create an arc/carve that you could overpower within a few good power strokes?
Why would it better to tilt offside/upstream and use offside strokes on the inside of that arc?
In reality I can see using all of these tactics in combination, but I want to understand if there are major different theories between paddling against an arc on your right, and maybe using some flattened offside strokes; compared to commiting to tilting offside and crossing mainly with offside strokes, which seemed to be the popular (but counterintuitive) recommendation?
Thanks, P.
I don't have any new advice, but I need to process this and clarify a few things for myself...
We're talking about heading downstream and crossing the current to the left: paddling on the right in pushy water and making it across over to the left. So, I'll ignore the talk about your strokes and ferrying (other than the option of turning upstream and starting to ferry as an alternative).
I agree that crossing the grain (i.e., setting up on the right to make the left) is key. And I agree that using offside strokes instead of onside stern corrections can help you hold your line and maintain your hull speed.
But something about tilt confuses me:
Another option when wanting to keep on the power strokes on your right, instead of using offside strokes, would be to tilt onside/right and paddle against that arc. However, people identified that as a potential problem -- possibly carving you farther right/downstream and causing you to miss your target. Shouldn't you be able to tilt to your onside and just create an arc/carve that you could overpower within a few good power strokes?
Why would it better to tilt offside/upstream and use offside strokes on the inside of that arc?
In reality I can see using all of these tactics in combination, but I want to understand if there are major different theories between paddling against an arc on your right, and maybe using some flattened offside strokes; compared to commiting to tilting offside and crossing mainly with offside strokes, which seemed to be the popular (but counterintuitive) recommendation?
Thanks, P.
One technique not mentioned here (and one I rarely see) is the set: a reverse ferry with the stern pointing left (for a righty) and the paddle on the upstream side. It likes a long narrow shape like a slalom boat and a careful reverse J. It's good for moving the boat across the river above those Death Slots.
Last edited by Bob P on Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bob P
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Jan_dettmer
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Hey Larry and all,
lots of good input that shows how complex it is to paddle whitewater.
For me, I try to watch for these things when I am on difficult whitewater.
1) when I paddle onside, I move the stroke as far forward as I can without
compromising a dry bow (wanna stay on top in the gnarl)
2) In more complex whitewater, I want to take momentum through the drop.
I mean I want to drive the boat in arcs. That means (lots of meaning in this
section ) that I can use the carve of my boat (creekboat).
I start on river right and want to go to river left. I start pointing more left
than I want to go and then follow an arc (see pic)
The carve can be initiated with a crossbows but kept going with onside.
Point 2 causes problems for a righty when you want to go left to right....
But the current often helps you building your speed when you move from slower water into faster water. Once you have speed, you can hold the angle better.
I guess I like dynamic moves.
Cheers, Jan
lots of good input that shows how complex it is to paddle whitewater.
For me, I try to watch for these things when I am on difficult whitewater.
1) when I paddle onside, I move the stroke as far forward as I can without
compromising a dry bow (wanna stay on top in the gnarl)
2) In more complex whitewater, I want to take momentum through the drop.
I mean I want to drive the boat in arcs. That means (lots of meaning in this
section
) that I can use the carve of my boat (creekboat). I start on river right and want to go to river left. I start pointing more left
than I want to go and then follow an arc (see pic)
The carve can be initiated with a crossbows but kept going with onside.
Point 2 causes problems for a righty when you want to go left to right....
But the current often helps you building your speed when you move from slower water into faster water. Once you have speed, you can hold the angle better.
I guess I like dynamic moves.
Cheers, Jan
Is there something like an expert kayaker?
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