Dagger Phantom Approximation?

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atcq
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Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by atcq »

Has anyone come across a boat in production that has similar specs and performance to the old Dagger Phantoms. I've paddled the boat a few times and absolutely love it. Its the only boat I prefer to my Zoom, especially as the volume starts to ramp up, so I was pretty bummed to hear they destroyed the mold a long time ago.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by Sir Adam »

If you're light (under 110 lbs say) check out the Splash. Yes, I know it is a kids boat, but in a lot of respects it reminds me a lot of the Phantom. I haven't spent a lot of time in either though, so more knowledgeable folks feel free to disagree!
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by canotrouge »

What about the Esquif Paradigm? They look really similar. But maybe not....
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by milkman »

I really liked Dagger Phantoms. At one point, I owned four of them. Then I bought an Esquif Prelude. I promptly sold three of the Phantoms and keep the fourth just as a spare boat and now paddle the Prelude all the time. It's simply a little better in everything I liked the Phantoms for--it's nimble, quick, gives good water feel, excellent for front and side surfs. It also has more rocker, which makes it spin more easily and faster for quick changes in direction. Now everytime I get into the Phantom, I wish I was in the Prelude, so I paddle the Prelude 99% of the time. I have a friend with a Zoom that has paddled my Prelude several times now and now is going to buy one. The big difference between the Prelude and the Zoom for me is the Prelude is less edgy, more forgiving, which personally I like, particularly when I get caught in a hole or am purposely sidesurfing. BTW, I'm 165 pounds, 5'11".
avlclimber
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by avlclimber »

I have a Phantom in my basement which sees regular use.
It is LIGHT (esp. with wood gunwales) has a nice stable, wide bottom, and rolls easily.
It's lack of rocker makes it rough on the ends (the nose and stern were severely bashed in when purchased) in steep terrain.
It rarely takes on water with a light paddler on board, but boy it's a pig when full.

Light female paddlers love the Phantom, and the one time I saw a Paradigm on the river, it was paddled by a light female who loved the boat. It is a cool color, and its flat bottom and low rocker probably make it quite similar. It is a touch longer, and might turn slower, but in wood gunwales might be of a similar weight.

I can't Imagine that a Detonator paddles all that differently, and the tumblehome might help with your cross-strokes.

The other "short" boats of the Phantoms's era were somewhat similar, but I don't know how many of those are still in production. Used Phantoms can be picked up pretty cheep, because big dudes don't like the way it paddles and people find them unmarketable. (I think they sink the chines and it becomes edgy and sluggish?)

I swear I saw a XL 10 the other day. I don't know if it is possible to get Mohawk to make one of their big stable canoes in a 11 or 10 foot length, but I bet that would paddle similarly.

All in all, I wonder if the Ion paddles similarly.
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by Bob Wiggins »

the ion paddles VERY similarly. lots of volume (corkish), stable, easy to turn, easy to roll, and fairly dry. i havent been in one much, but i was surprised by how much i liked it, and some of the similarities. btw, im 5'9" and around 110-115 pounds (though still growing fast).
ian123
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by ian123 »

The phantom and the ion are similar??
...
drrpm
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by drrpm »

How about a Mohawk Maxim?
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by Bob Wiggins »

ian123 wrote:The phantom and the ion are similar??
In some ways. Obviously they handle very differently, but most of the qualities I like in my ion were also there in the phantom.
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by Larry Horne »

http://gregsdaggercanoe.blogspot.com/?view=classic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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avlclimber
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by avlclimber »

Now you're just naming boats that start with "P."
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by avlclimber »

ian123 wrote:The phantom and the ion are similar??
My guess is for casual river running they would perform quite similarly (sicknasty gnar not withstanding.)

The Ion has a sharper chine, but less of it (length) and the general shape is like the midsection of a larger boat without the ends. There will clearly be some differences in the shorter boat and the greater weight, but my guess is someone at home in one boat would step into the other and find their leans and paddle strokes have about the same effect. Both boats will bob up over wavetrains and cruise with stability.
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arhdc
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by arhdc »

Not the same but I met a woman this weekend who paddles a Phantom normally and LOVES getting into the L'Edge. She says she feels at home in it but with sharper performance.
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by milkman »

Interesting about the "Phantom" woman loving the L'edge and thinking it has "sharper performance." I'd say the opposite with regard to hull speed ... and I'd be surprised if there was an advantage in edging. The Phantom has some pretty good chines. But each person has a different opinion when it comes to what they like in a boat. I'm also surprised at some of the boats being suggesting for Phantom replacements. The Paradigm though was an interesting suggestion. It's kind of a long Phantom in the way that a Zephyr is a long Zoom.

I've paddled a Maxim and while the Phantom doesn't have much initial stability, the Maxim feels like it has even less. I need more time though in a Maxim to really compare the two.

As someone who paddled Phantoms almost exclusively for three years (over 160 outings), I still think the Esquif Prelude is the closest to having a similar feel and paddling characteristics--with the added advantage of being made of PE.
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Re: Dagger Phantom Approximation?

Post by TonyB »

Diddnt accur to me till just now but alot of the characteristics of the Pantom (first shortish boat I've ever paddled) were apparent in the Phiend prototype. not saying its the answer but wort a look.
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