Which is bow, which is stern?

[rcgalwa]

I am outfitting a L'edge hull and need to know which end is the bow and which is the stern? I assume the vin # plate is in the stern, but want to be sure? Anyone know for sure?

[Smurfwarrior]

Vin at the stern

[rcgalwa]

Thanks

[woro90]

Different hull, different place, same problem. I recently bought an old C1 (a slalom practice boat - all glass, no kevlar or carbon, but very flat hull) and the problem is that it's almost symmetrical in length and volume. The widest spot is somewhere around one edge of the coaming, the hull is a bit flatter there I think. The other end has a spindle-like extended tip (I hope you understand my description, I'll post photos later) and is maybe a bit deeper but narrower than the first (flatter but wider and with commonly tapered tip) so I can't estimate which has more volume. I have paddled it only once, on flat water, with removable seat and padding (I don't need thigh straps in it since I'm 200cm tall and the hull is only 21cm deep), and could not decide which end is which - strangely it was not much of a difference either way. The guy I bought it from said he couldn't remember which way it was outfitted from the factory or if it even was outfitted at all, and that he had paddled it the wider end first, one of his two sons too, and the other son paddled it the other way. Only the son who paddled it the pointy end first had used thigh straps and carefully removed them to make the boat usable either side front for someone else so this is not a factor either. It's completely empty. How do I tell which end should be pointed which way?

[woro90]

Well, the photos arrived. Shot at the dorm, my roommate held the boat and I went down the stairs to get the camera pointed level.

side view, the cork is there to get both ends roughly level

top view, don't look inside

bottom view, looks like quite rushed patch

[Smurfwarrior]

Bow is right. From why I've seen, the wide part is always just behind the cockpit towards the stern.

[woro90]

Thanks, that's what I thought too, but isn't the stern usually wide AND flat? On this particular boat the ends seem to have roughly equal volume, but from what my roommate said to me when I tried it both ways at a pond, the patched end appears to have slightly bigger displacement than the pointy end and even seems to shed waves slightly better. What a stupid boat. What is more probable, a C-1 with fat bow and skinny stern or strangely deformed hull?

Do you know the reason behind the widest point being right behind the cockpit? Does it have any hydrodynamic advantage (speed, edged turns, resurfacing) or just for more room for feet?

[Bob P]

Any clues from the original outfitting?

That thing's got a weird shape. Usually the widest part of the hull is behind the cockpit, but I've never seen an extended taper on a bow.

In the early 80's, the Superbat had some strange proportions. Nearly equal volume front and rear. Great for bow pivots.

The reason C1s are widest behind the cockpit is to allow a more vertical stroke up front. Slalom C1-ers almost never use a power stroke behind the cockpit.

[woro90]

Nothing left of the original outfitting. I bought it completely empty and the previous owner doesn't remember if there was any or he bought it as an empty shell.

That thing's got a weird shape.

Exactly my words when I first looked at it thoroughly Slightly resembles the old Cudamax though.

In the early 80's, the Superbat had some strange proportions. Nearly equal volume front and rear. Great for bow pivots.

Yes, that might be it. It definitely looks like it was made in the early 80's, when paddlers used bow and stern pivots the same way. Might be a lot of fun (I've tried stern pivots only).

The reason C1s are widest behind the cockpit is to allow a more vertical stroke up front. Slalom C1-ers almost never use a power stroke behind the cockpit.

Thanks, so this is the reason behind strange looking C1s like Vaňha (Noah)'s Jape, Galasport Makao (and nearly anything from Galasport )? And what about those short, pointy "wings" on some C-1s?

edit: Definitely early 80's. I found some more pictures of Prijon Reflector and Hearn/Lugbill boats - it fits. The only weird thing is that the lowest point of the bottom is off-center as well. Was it normal in the eighties or is it a sign of material fatigue and deforming keelson? And was it normal to get a "submarine bow" at higher speeds on flat water?

I'll give it another try, this time during daylight hours, to see more. Last time the only place to try it was a small pond in a park near the dorm, that is not a place you go paddling during the day. It makes perfect sense that the pointy end is the bow, the only thing that confuses me is that the other end floats slightly better.

Thank you both, Smurfwarrior and Bob P. Another ideas and insights are welcome, I would like to learn as much about my new toy as possible (for example the reason for the pointy end), although I feel this bow/stern problem is almost solved, just waiting for another paddle test.

[Smurfwarrior]

My guess is it's an old slalom boat and you're too heavy for the cut, hense the "submarine bow"

[Smurfwarrior]

And the patch on the stern matches damage normally seen when stern squirting turns in shallow water.

[woro90]

You're probably right with me being a bit too heavy for a slalom boat - although my BMI is only 21, it's 85kg (187lb) @ 200cm (almost 6' 7"), no problem to wet the deck by leaning. Looks like I'll have to fit a beer compartment in the stern to prevent getting too bow-heavy when reaching for a long power stroke But one thing amazes me - it does not ride too low when standing still but the faster I go, the more water gets on the deck. At normal cruising speeds ("I'm going to paddle all day, no hurry") it starts as splashes around the pointy thing and at sprint speeds the whole deck can get wet even in small waves. But maybe I just lean too far forward and move too much water in one stroke, I've always paddled a 16' open canoe before buying this C1 so all my strokes are a bit too long for a low-volume decked canoe that feels amost weightless to me compared to the heavy plastic cruiser with little rocker I'm used to.

According to the former user, the damage occured when he hit a rock in some rapids (all the faster water in Bohemia is shallow and rocky), using the boat wide end forward

[Bob P]

Here I am (150 lbs) in a Superbat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOk5pas-ZRM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[John Coraor]

As noted previously, your boat appears to be similar to a Cudamax from the early 80s. Slalom boats at that point often had a very pointed bow to effectively shorten the portion of the bow in the water while still maintaining required overall boat length. A slightly later evolutionary step (around 1985 when a blunted ends requirement was added) saw the pointy bow being eliminated with the same length being added to the stern, starting the "cab forward" design trend.

As seen in profile, both bow and stern were similarly thin vertically to facilitate sneaking gates with both bow and stern, as well as make it easier to perform both bow and stern pivots. Keep in mind that slalom at that time had reverse gates (since eliminated from slalom competition) that had to be executed with the stern downstream of the bow. A major element of slalom technique of that period involved being able to swoop into a reverse gate almost dead sideways, twitch your boat slightly reverse while sneaking both ends, and then twitch it back to its original heading while maintaining your momentum (called a "slam dunk" reverse). This reverse gate option was complemented by a "spin reverse" which a paddler used to change direction while in the gate - turning reverse just before entry into the gate (often using a stern pivot) sneaking the stern and then continuing the spin (often still on a pivot) as the current and your momentum carried you through the gate, finally sneaking the bow and exiting heading back toward the side of the river from which you entered.

John

[Jim Michaud]

Back in the 70s when I was a fairly new paddler I would read as much as I could about hull designs. I remember reading that the reason that the boat is wider behind the cockpit is that it made the boat go faster in shallow water. I couldn't figure how that made it any faster but I was new to the game at the time. Now that I'm a little more experienced I still can't figure out why.