just how long...

[Craig Smerda]

would be "too long" for a new plastic C1 ?

imagine if you will a hull that's around 27"-ish wide... PE... used for river running and solid up to class IV-ish creeking with a median paddler target weight of 175lbs

just curious and this post means absolutely NOTHING other than me poking around in peoples minds... but everytime I see pictures of Daggers Green Boat and Liquid Logic's Stinger I think to myself... man... speed looks like fun... and I hate repairing composites

that said... I can already hear the "it's too heavy" comments though... but that's the bad that comes with the good of durability... we can't change the laws of physics and we can always buy composites that are already out there and by all accounts very good

[markzak]

I have wanted to try out J Dittty's C1 converted Pyranha Speeder for sometime. Sorry to bring up a conversion on this thread, but I know he paddles the Gauley and other stuff in that boat. There might be some really good lessons to learn. Obviously the Green boat makes a terrible C1 but I know there are a few dudes paddling them. I've also taken my Gyramax down our really great Class IV runs in the Poconos like Harvey's Creek and it was a blast to paddle.

I would personally like a boat that I could use for long downriver trips on my class II-III stuff. And a boat I race the Cheatrace with and other popular downstream races. All I have to add is that my Gyramax wan't too long for creeking and was a blast to paddle before it disintegrated due to plastic rot.

[Emergo]

Fink is too short (well maybe just too slow), Atom is good, Cascade is too long. so, 10'

[Sir Adam]

I voted 11', as I think 10' or 10.5' would be good.

If I want a longer boat there are plenty of 13' slalom boats to pick up (older models for high volume (Jape or Max II anyone?)), shorter to 12' (or even 11.5' many times) without much trouble.

I'm planning on paddling the Amoeba at the armada (10.5'), will be good to see if that is in fact the ideal length we seem to all think it would be!

I do think a river runner should be, or could be, longer than a creeker or play boat. For an all around boat (broken record has started...) the Sith has it... and it's not that long. BUT, for true speed longer would be better. Viper anyone? Hmmm... Plastic Viper C1... that could indeed be VERY interesting....

[Lappie]

Why not paddlers weight around 195lbs? from what we read about the average paddler wheigt on here, look like there is a lot of paddlers over 200lbs.... I am!

[JFD]

For me the issue with all of the manufactured C-1's is that they are way too wide, and wide=slow, and the glide suffers. One of my favorite boats to paddle is the Dagger Response conversion, 23.25 inches wide with a full displacement hull. A lot of people seem spooked by the initial lack of stability, but it actually ends up being an advantage in hard rapids. You have almost 150 degrees of lateral upright rolling mobility, and somehow this seems to help you to put the nose of the boat exactly where you want in tough water. I don't understands the dynamics of it, I just know it works, and the boat is upright more than a lot of my other wider boats with harder edges. I've been paddling a stinger C-1 conversion (with a retractable skeg) this winter, and it is even better than the response in terms of staying upright. A little harder to keep on a precise line, and a heavier boat overall. Not sure which one is faster, but I'll find out in Jerrys Baddle in a couple of weeks. And then of course the speeder that Mark mentioned, probably the most fun I've had in any boat for the Upper Yough and similar runs. I'll have it around this summer if you want to try it Mark. I know nothing about boat design, and certainly don't expect anyone to build a boat for the way I like it. I'm happy with the options out there. Besides, if someone makes a new c-1, we'll all have to give up our adhesive habits and start drinking.
I guess I should add that I'm cheating on this width issue by being very lightweight, about 145 lbs after a swim.

[markzak]

I can agree with that. I paddled a C1 dagger gradient for a long time and really enjoyed it for the reasons you explained here.

[jrsh92]

I voted 10'. I have an Atom and like it a lot, I do have some complaints about the boat but the length is nice, I really like its speed compared to shorter boats like most modern conversions.
I see the appeal of Gyramax length boats and their even greater speed, but I wouldn't purchase one personally. The Atom already feels on the long side for the tighter rivers I paddle. I feel like it's a good tradeoff for its speed, but anything longer would be impractical for most of the river running I do.

[dafriend]

As a 200+ pounder (OK, closer to 220 than 200) I'm feeling like Lappie. Up the median a bit will ya?

Dave

I voted 11' and think 10'4" sounds good mostly because it's fun to say 10-4

[Berkshire Jack]

I like the shorter boats for their manuverability and lower weight. Quick changes in direction and micro eddies are essential to my creeking style and shorter boats work better in that respect. I have owned 3 Gyramax's and a Taurus C1, so I have had experience with the longer boats. Now I mostly paddle a converted Dagger Redline and have just converted a Pyranha Burn, which has yet to see the water. The Redline is 8 1/2 feet. In a creek boat, I could see going a tad longer for hole punching and a little increased speed, so I voted for 9 ft..
Also, I would vote for bumping up your weight average. I am 190 lbs now, but by the time any new plastic C1 makes its way out of the mold, I will probably have added weight.

[oopsiflipped]

also wondering on the 27" width, craig. i haven't weighed 145 lbs since 6th grade, but i still think that is a bit much. of course, i'm not going to buy a factory c1 anytime soon. although i wouldn't mind to start flushing the collection back out, but all the boats i'm looking for are from factorys that have since closed.

[Berkshire Jack]

A 27 inch width does seem too wide for a C1. 26 inches would be better. You don't need the stability and little extra dryness that increased width would add. Those factors are bumped down in importance when you have the enclosed deck. Making the boat a little more narrow, gives the added speed which becomes important when you make it shorter.

[Craig Smerda]

I'm thinking that 27"-ish would be the maximum width at the very widest and highest point. But I'm just tossing some fairly random numbers out here. I'm thinking 26" would need to be the bare minimum.

What are slalom C1's these days... .65M or 25.59" minimum width?
The old slalom C1 minimum width spec was 70cm or 27.56" right?
Of course they added little wings to get them to the minimum spec on the 70cm boats... but how well does a 6ft tall 200lb guy float in an older slalom C1? Now consider he might go run some steeper and bigger "stuff" in it and he doesn't want to spend more time bracing the boat than he does actually moving it.

Historical views...

Atom 9'-8" @ 26" max width
Cascade 11'-0" @ 27.5" max width
Finkenmeister 9'-0" @ 28" max width

Groove 8'-0" @ 30" max width
Sith 8'-4" @ 27" max width
Big Boy 6'-9" @ 29" max width
Wheelboy 6'-5" @ 28" max width

A boats width in my view needs to be proportianal to it's length, defined use and intended "load" abilities... unless of course you weigh 145lbs and paddle like some sort of bionic wild man then you can just throw that all out the window.

A Speeder Ditty... seriously?

[oopsiflipped]

i think the 28" section of the fink is only in the water if you weigh about 350 lbs....and the cascade is awesome, but who paddles one anymore?

come to think of it, how often do you seen anyone paddling any of the boats you listed compared to how often you see conversions?

[Larry Horne]

Model: PURE XL
Length: 269 cm / 8'10
Width: 69 cm / 27 in
Volume: 330 l / 87gal

the large burn is listed at 27" as well.

but you're going in the wrong direction completely Smerrrr-da..
http://www.biothinking.com/superspud/
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