Roll form

Decked Canoes, Open Canoes, as long as they're canoes!

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FullGnarlzOC
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Roll form

Post by FullGnarlzOC »

Check it out, little quick edit... http://vimeo.com/18606231

Looks pretty different from standard roll. No beaver slap + side of canoe set up(w/ gumpy showed me last may - works great)

To all the un-bombproofed rollers - take notice to how the paddle is doing a sweeping action underwater, and not just pushing down. I often speak of 3 planes of resistence... Down, forward, and out n away from the boat(to get ur body in quickly)... The more resistence you can get from the water, the bomber the roll. IMHO.

Anyways... feel free to pick it apart if u'd like (remember tho... i dont miss a roll muwahhaah) ;)

ps - dat maxim quick...oh boy.
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FullGnarlzOC
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Post by FullGnarlzOC »

seeing those pics thrown together like that... reminds me of how truly awesome of a year this was. Glad I was able to be a part of the 20 person OC-1 crews on Upper Gauley and Ocoee.

thank u to all who have been there along the way to do some paddlin!
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Einar
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Excellent vdieo

Post by Einar »

Thanks, that instructive, great quality.
I use the same style of roll as the traditional static setup didn't work for me. Occasionally the squirrley water grabs the blade and I have to reset but I'm use to it.
If that is the roll that you have been using in some of the drops you have been running then I'm gonna go back and watch them agian.
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yarnellboat
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Post by yarnellboat »

I think that's the same roll I use too, either that, or all rolls look alike to me.

We should use more video Einar.

That sad amount I've been paddling lately, rolling is the only thing I'm going to be able do when I get on the river. :(

Gnarlz, what's the H for in your post? Maybe you should just go with IMO, or maybe throw in a B for bold? IMHO doesn't suit you. :wink:

Pat.
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rockyboater
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Post by rockyboater »

That's very similar to my role. The forward sweep is the way to go. Allows you to stay tighter to the boat which is what you want on shallow creeks and big pushy water. Also gets you around a lot smother on your offside. Your role looks solid, but if had to critique it I'd say just a little more hip flick, keep the head down a little more on the way up and a little less muscle. But honestly you look like a really solid boater and it seems to work fine.:) Keep it up.
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Post by clarion »

That's the best roll video I've seen. Love the different angles and doing it over and over again. Really helps build the mental image. I've tried before and didn't make it. I'm hoping to at least get a pool roll this year. That video helps. Thanks.
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Gord
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Check out Bob Foote's rolling video

Post by Gord »

Clarion

Check out Bob Foote's roll video. It has a great teaching progression, with above and below water shots from different angles.

I taught myself to roll in an afternoon using that video on my laptop at the local beach.

Gord
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Nice Tommy

Post by Wendy »

Thanks for posting. Having underwater shots really helps
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gumpy
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Post by gumpy »

where's that last pic from?
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Todhunter
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Post by Todhunter »

gumpy wrote:where's that last pic from?
Green Narrows?

Good video - the "reach way back then forward sweep" is something I need to try out. I really need that roll!

It was good paddling the O with you. Look forward to ALF.
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Post by Kelvin »

Hey Tommy,

If that paddle position works for you cool! It is a similar paddle position to how I back deck roll.

I am going to give you a few things to think about.

You roll the boat using the forward sculling action, there is little evidence of a hip flick. If you combined your forward skull with an understanding of the hip flick your roll would be almost indestructible! I am going to explain the hip flick first, then look at things for you to experiment with.

I am going to be over prescriptive here so please bear in mind the purpose is to give you things to consider, not to say 'only do it like this'

Experiment with this with your hands on the pool side.

The optimum body position as viewed from above to drive the boat upright is around 90 degrees.

Let's look at what the legs do first, or rather the part of the legs that are under the bulkhead/straps etc. Ok, we roll the boat with both our legs BUT we only use one at once. Here's how it works: when we are in the 'set' position our offside leg pulls on our bulkhead/straps to bring our torso towards the surface. There should be no 'active' pressure on our onside knee. (There will be some pressure as we are hanging upside down!) We then relax the offside leg and drive the boat upright with our onside leg. Almost a spring effect. The boat is driven as far as possible with the head still down. It is useful to give the moment the pressure changes from leg to leg a 'word' that you or your student can say, i.e 'GNARR!' This can then be used as a timing trigger when working on the roll. The head and torso UP at the start of the hip flick is as important as head and torso DOWN at the end of the hip flick.

We have now driven the boat as far as we can with the head still down.

This is the point where you usually hear 'keep your head down!' What we should be saying is 'now we are going to look at how to bring the head up'
Sit on your sofa. Now lay your body down towards your paddling side keeping your feet on the ground, relax. You've fallen asleep, dreaming of the Gnarr... a voice stirs you... 'Tommy..... TOMMY!' You grunt something as you sit up, which part of your body do you lift first? For most people it's their head. Sitting up this way has become intuitive, top vertebra first, followed by the next, followed by the next and so on. We need to learn how to sit up from the bottom vertebra first, followed by the next, followed by the next and so on. A sort of whip effect!

A few observations on your roll:

Pause the video to when you have sculled the paddle to 90 degrees, with the T grip a bit lower and the boat pulled a bit more on top of you that would be a great position to hip flick from. That would be a different roll for you.

You right the boat slowly throughout the roll, doing this you loose that 'spring' effect that holding the boat 'capsized' with the offside leg gives you. More weight than necessary is then committed to the blade. The boat is effectively pushing you down throughout the roll.

You take the paddle a long way back and get support from the sculling action. Again this commits more weigh that necessary to the blade as you are holding your body close to the surface with the blade, rather than with your offside leg. This is really visible at the moment you start to scull forwards the first thing that happens is your head, torso and paddle dive deeper. I can also see that you have lost tension in your offside leg as the boat is already half way up when you start your scull forwards.

A few things to experiment with:

When you scull back hold the boat 'capsized' with your offside leg, keep this pressure as you start to scull forwards. This way when you scull forwards your head, torso and paddle will be rising towards the surface. With this in mind let's look at your head: it starts near the surface, then dives down, then it comes up. Viewed from the side at water level it would draw a 'smile' shape. A roll with a good hip flick will generally make an 'rainbow' shape. As you start to scull forwards pressure on your offside leg lifts you up, towards the surface as you switch pressure to your onside leg your head will generally drop a bit as you drive the boat upright. If we think of the highest part of the rainbow, driving with the onside leg will start before the top to get maximum support from the blade. This is where your timing trigger word (GNARR!) is useful for experimenting. Once we have driven the boat as far as we can, sit up like a whip!

Feel free to comment on anything that I have suggested. Also for those experimenting with with new ideas and concepts, it is likely that they will feel more awkward and 'harder' than what you already know. They need to be given time and practised. And we all know what practise makes.... PERMANENT! Only perfect practise makes perfect.

Have fun developing your not only bomb proof but indestructible roll!

Kelvin.
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Post by clarion »

Check out Bob Foote's roll video. It has a great teaching progression, with above and below water shots from different angles.
Thanks Gord! I just ordered it.
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marclamenace
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Post by marclamenace »

Really interesting discussions around rolling here, thanks tommy and kelvin and all.

Just say'n: this is exactly how I busted a shoulder three years ago: sculling type of rolling with no hip snap. Worked good in a pool or pond, but in boiling water it failed and I foolishly sticked at it pushing stronger and further. Took me a long time to recover.

Also this type of rolling won't work as good in a small c1 boat, turning your roll attempt in a squirt move. That said, I still use sculling a lot these days, including sometimes to finish a roll, it is very useful to a lot of purposes, specially to maintain a brace for a longer time, or brace and draw at the same time, etc.

Swapping boats with your budies in a pool session also helps a lot understanding the movement dynamics as rolling a open boat, full volume C1 or small playboat are all very different games.

Just my .02$ !
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Post by markzak »

I'd put a big recommendation out there to:

Sweep out to your set-up position using the power face of the blade (like a kayak sweep roll).... then flip the blade over when you're ready to actually start rolling up (forward - towards the bow) and roll up using the non- power face of the blade.

In this video, Tommy is sweeping out on the non-power face. It apparently works but is not the traditional C1 roll.
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Post by Larry Horne »

Thanks for that post kelvin! best written instruction I've seen.


my roll has really gone in the crapper in the last year or so. So, I'm going to print that out and go to a pool session!
Larry
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