How short of a canoe would I need to backwards surf?

pa_paddler · Post by **pa_paddler** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:51 am

Hello from Pennsylvania. I've been reading your forum on and off for a while now but I just joined and this is my first post. I'm wondering how short of a canoe I would need to backwards surf. Now I"m sure there are paddlers out there who can do it in a long boat, but I'm talking a normal WW boat. Really to be able to spin on the wave from front surfing to backwards surfing. Actually as I sit here thinking about it I guess teh rocker would have as much to do with it as the legth but don't most of the really short WW canoes all have lots of rocker? Thanks in advance. I really enjoy the site.

Scott

Larry Horne · Post by **Larry Horne** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:05 am

you need one that is 7'- 8"

ezwater · Post by **ezwater** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:42 am

I think my 13' Millbrook Big Boy would back surf, if I were competent enough to spin, or enter the wave face from an eddy. A good deal of rocker helps, a flat bottom helps, and the right chine design helps. It is true that really short boats can surf short waves better than most longer boats, but I don't think one should shop for a certain length of boat. Shop for a boat with a good reputation for surfing and spinning on waves.

SkeeterGuy86 · Post by **SkeeterGuy86** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:41 am

Blackfly .... built to play

philcanoe · Post by **philcanoe** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:39 am

Guess it would be more a matter of the ratio, of size of wave to hull, than of precisely saying which boat. And even more importantly the nature of the wave itself, not only amplitude, but wavelength (as in wavelength vs period). I've spun big boats around (15 footers) on certain features, while struggled on others with a 8foot Spanish Fly.

With that gibberish done....

I'd say yes - rocker and flat is going to be of essence, although maybe even a long old ME might be good-enough as it's well rockered. It's a bit different in a canoe than decked boat, where no rocker is negated by being able to shorten length, by putting part of it underwater (think Salsa, CUFly, Blackfly). An open canoer must deal with his length more effectively, while a stab or blast will get a deck boat around. Unless of course filling your boat with water is OK with you.

But even more important is weight transfer... where and when you transfer it.... and the rate at which it is done. I'd say this is (at least equally) as important as length of wetted hull... perhaps more because this determines wetted hull length, and how it is presented to current (IE which part is in the water). And even though I alluded to that ME, flat would be key component - it certainly would make things a lot simpler.

TonyB · Post by **TonyB** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:46 pm

My Nitro spins and surfs great. At 11 1/2 ft it feels half as long on wave. It's a semi planing hull with forgiving compound chines.

I'm in eastern pa if ya wanna give it a try.

oc1paddlr · Post by **oc1paddlr** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:39 am

welcome to c-boats pa_paddler !
if your boat can front surf, it can back surf. it all has to do with angle control.
and what phil said

Todhunter · Post by **Todhunter** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:28 pm

I am a super beginner, and I have been able to get 360 degree spins on surf waves twice now in my Maxim. Flat bottom, sharp chines, and short!

John Coraor · Post by **John Coraor** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:26 pm

With the right wave/hole and the necessary skills you can back surf and spin in just about anything.

My wife and I used to have great fun doing "doughnuts" (flat spins) in Swimmer's on the Lower Yough together in a 15' slalom C-2. I also used to do them solo in my 4-meter slalom C-1. I've seen old footage of someone doing solo flat spins in Swimmer's in a big old-style OC cruiser (like a old Blue Hole or Old Town Tripper).

So it's all a matter of what you want to do and how much time and effort you're willing to put into getting the skills to be able to do it.

That being said, the learning curve will probably be gentler in a shorter boat with substantial rocker.

John

markzak · Post by **markzak** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:37 pm

PA_Paddler... welcome to the page and its always good to meet other canoeists in PA.

What river(s) do you paddle or enjoy paddling or plan on paddling on in the future? That may help put your question into perspective.

horizongfx · Post by **horizongfx** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:07 pm

Todhunter wrote:I am a super beginner, and I have been able to get 360 degree spins on surf waves twice now in my Maxim. Flat bottom, sharp chines, and short!

I can attest to that I seen him do it, wernt even tryin to !

ncdavid · Post by **ncdavid** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:36 am

I saw him doing it on purpose. And lookin' all styley. On that particular feature, I've seen open canoes from Maxim to Genesis doing 360s. This past Saturday, there wasn't enough volume of water there to spin anything much longer than my Zephyr. Anything longer would have smacked a rock just barely sticking out of the water on the downstream side. (river left spin spot at Pyramid on the Nantahala)

Deb R · Post by **Deb R** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:08 pm

My Zoom would back surf beautifully but only with someone else paddling it!

Deb

FullGnarlzOC · Post by **FullGnarlzOC** » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:08 am

could back surf in my XL13... I think the answer that your looking for is 11'6. If you care about such things like 'back surfing' you'll want shorter than 13ft boat like the xl.

laughing water · Post by **laughing water** » Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:26 am

It has more to do with shape than length of hull in my opinion. I used to have a Mohawk Shaman that back surfed very easily. Actually often when I was trying to side surf it would want to go into a back surf by it's self. I would try to spin my Zepher on a certain wave and couldn't do it. Next time I would bring my Shaman (a foot longer)and it would spin beautifully on the same wave. It's a little wider in the stern than the bow which I think is why. At 175 lbs I found the Shaman to be very forgiving. It had softer chines and would let me get the feel for spinning on a certain wave. Then I would come back with my Zepher on the same wave, I found I could spin it too.