Why isn't a roll one of the first things learned

[Mr.DeadLegs]

Smerda brought it up in another thread. Kayakers are taught to roll right off the bat. Are we handicapping ourselves by not having a roll? It seems as though kayakers without a roll do not progress much beyond where a lot of canoeists are. Is the ability to roll the tool that takes you to the next level. If so we need to start the noobs with roll practice. What class water are people comfortable paddling without a roll vs with a roll? This has me thinking of what I need to attain this winter.

[Longboatin]

Not sure where I fall on this. Though I definitely believe that if youre going to progress, it doesnt matter if you have roll or not. Though it might make it easier to have one.
As far as yaks are concerned, I think they rely too much on the roll, as witnessed every time I boat, watching yaks flip and roll multiple times on the same run where I may have to brace big once.
It depends too on the type of boatin...if youre motivated to surf holes, then roll would become necessity. River runnin, slalom style, w/ some wave surfin? get good at your boat control and edges, and youd probably never need a roll.
Of course, I do have a friend, Cheat & Gauley guide, yak & squirt boater, ran solo regularly, never had a roll. Somthin about not wantin to muss his hair.
The safety roll? ala Louie - absolute necessity, practice every chance I git

[lagow8]

I switched to OC-1 from kayaking about 2 years ago and one of the first things I did was learn how to roll. I live in northern WI and the water is always freezing (I do not want to swim in it) so I love having a roll. I would not run most of the creeks up here if I did not have a roll. I have taken some beatings waiting for a roll, but I think it is a lot better than having to swim in freezing water. I also like having a almost 100% roll for play-boating, which I believe helps you become a great creeker. Once you play-boat yourself out of a big hole on a creek you will start to understand why having a roll is necessary.

I also admit that I work at my colleges pool sessions so I have a lot of free time to work on my roll.

[marclamenace]

What I see around is that WW canoe usually begins with class 1 or 2 duo paddling, day or multi-days trips. That capability to do multi-days, combining camping, fishing and including the kids in is what drives a lot of people towards canoeing the most.

Yakers, even first timers wants to go big as fast as possible. The possibility of putting gears in a yak for multi-days is debatable, but is definitely not what drives people towards the sport first hand. Yaking is playboating.

Later on, some canoeists realize they can also playboat single blade and then learn to paddle solo and to roll. I personnally did two week-enders duo before to buy a solo canoe; I got hooked right away. But I know most people (80%?) gets stuck in the first step and never even go solo.

Also people don't feel like buying all the gears, drysuit etc for a single boater before knowing if they are likely to really like the sport. You can rent a longboat for cheap for a week-end, divide the cost in two. You need pretty much nothing else. Around here if you feel like playboating you need a dry suit, which is as expensive as a boat in itself!

Also paddling a yak is sooo easy. Get a newbie in a solo canoe and you'll need some time to learn him to paddle straight, brace, eddy turn, cross-bow etc. That part is kind of instintive in a kayak.

That's just how I see it anyways!
[/u]

[AJ]

Interesting question/thoughts. I think the reason canoers don't learn rolling like yakers is that we can easily get out and swim. A yak is very confining and harder to get out of.

I paddle up to class III+ / IV. I got to this level without a roll. For a long time I paddle by the late John Graye's words of wisdom, "just don't go over". Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I really just started trying to roll in the last couple of years. I had it down cold in the pool this past winter in my Skeeter and Ocoee, however, I could never get it down in my Taureau. Several other paddlers in our crew do not have a reliable combat roll either, but we are all getting better at it.

Do I want a combat roll, yes and will continue to work at it, yes. Does it hold me back, sometimes. Do I paddle more conservative in bigger rapids, yes.

Now that I am out of the Taureau, I know I will have a much better chance, at least in moderate rapids. My best roll to date was this year on the Ark on the numbers in the middle of number 6, boy I was pumped!

[Mr.DeadLegs]

Let me add to this, without a roll would you feel comfortable paddling class 4/5 water?

[TonyB]

actually part of why I got into open boating was because there wasnt the demand to learn to roll. Now Im teaching my instructors how to roll.

[SkeeterGuy86]

i can honestly say that i dont have a roll ... i would like to learn to roll my boat

there are a few things that are difficult with me learning are 2 things

my knees wont let me sit comfortable in a boat with a saddle smaller than 11 inches .... thats a high saddle even in a "longer" boat ... i paddle a skeeter

and the boat sadly has to be fixed to where i am "in" my boat ... i know that those Canoeists that have paddled with me have seen that i usually just sit in my boat but not actually part of the boat .... and as far as what im willing to paddle without a roll ... anything as long as i have a good explanation of the line or a good scout of the rapid

that being said i am going to raise my saddle in my skeeter about an inch to where i am comfortable again and going to modify the foot pegs so that i can use them ... its going to make the boat more unstable than it is right now (saddle is set at roughly 10 inches)

and the other problem is ..... Can someone teach me how to roll?

[Larry Horne]

I learned a roll a soon as i started paddling a ww boat. I had no desire to swim ww and still don't (though I cant seem to get through a year without a good spanking). A roll is 50 times easier than a swim, and safer too. Faster too. Less hassle for everyone in the group too.
that said, I had to teach myself how because;
1. nobody paddles canoes around here. so
2. no body even knows a canoe can be rolled.
I wonder if that has anything to do with it?

[sbroam]

I think there is a basic difference in expectation with regards to open canoeing versus kayaking - at least for *most* people. Most people don't approach ww canoeing with the same intent to paddle aggressively that folks approach kayaking. Kayaking is "extreme". Also, swimming as a self rescue option is a little more viable in an open boat - we *always* have floatation. Also, it's possible to remount midstream - try that in a kayak!

I paddled for quite a few years, venturing up to class IV occasionally, without a roll - I was paddling pretty defensively to avoid the "yard sale". When I finally got my roll nailed, I started paddling the harder stuff with more confidence. [I also started paddling C-1 more and was playing harder.] I've always paddled better than I swam, even swamped. [Note, I swim really badly and don't necessarily paddle all that well.]

That's my $.02.

[Mikey B]

I didn't know anyone with a roll when I was learning...had to try and figure it out myself. A couple of my buddies have given it a try, but by and large they don't really care too much about it.
I learned in a Mohawk Shaman (which is a very easy boat to roll) and really only needed it a few times. When I switched to smaller boats I suddenly needed it much more
I think it does add to confidence...especially when playing...not so afraid to jump into/onto something because you know you can roll up and keep trying instead of looking at it as a swim. Plus, it's very tiring to swim, so for that reason alone it would be very worthwhile.
I do think there's a few who think it's too difficult to learn so don't want to make the effort. I'm always amazed and not sure how to take it when at the East Race when kayakers always compliment me on having a roll...like it's really unusual to have one...which is maybe a sad commentary for openboaters, or just the lack of them there regularly?
I do think it prompts one to get one if they paddle much with the kayakers. You feel like you need one to keep up.
I often wondered if I was wasting my time working at it until seeing guys like Smerda and Roy who were tearing it up...inspirational to me!
It was nice heading to PA this last year to paddle with PAC, Big Al, and Martin and see a lot of openboaters and C-1's with very solid rolling skills.
Worthwhile skill for all of us to have

[Jim Michaud]

If you swim your problems have just started.
If you roll your problems have just ended.

[Louie]

A roll is still just correcting a mistake you made a few seconds earlier.

[golder]

i paddle up to class IV. i dont have a roll at the moment. class IV is as difficult as i am willing to go w/out a roll. that said, after a nasty swim creekin' a few weeks ago, i'm determined to have a roll. just waiting for a little help at pool. i taught myself to roll once before, and it never got past a pond roll. since then i've gone a few years w/out paddling much before moving back south about a year ago and getting back on the water like i should be. this time around i ain't reinventing the wheel all over again.

i think fewer open boaters have rolls is because there are fewer open boaters to learn from. teaching yourself is ok--admirable for sure. but it is also certainly inefficient and more difficult than it needs to be. finding a kayaker w/ a roll is no harder than finding empty beer bottles 'long side of the road.

i feel like i'm a pretty good swimmer, i aint looking to keep practicing though. like sbroam said, remounting mid rapid is a nice perk, compared to yakin'. the butt boaters i'm with are usually impressed with that one. i also agree that paddling with a lot of kayakers is encouragement to get a roll to keep up, the same could be said with having an electric pump as well.

[Larry Horne]

true, we all make mistakes. some are just better at fixing them than others.