Creeks vs Bigger Water Techniques

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kabuki_blaze
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Creeks vs Bigger Water Techniques

Post by kabuki_blaze »

OK, got a quick question for everyone and I would love to get some feedback.

Just recently I paddled the Lower Gauley in my modified Ocoee (Pinched 1.5"(estimate) and the ends cut by about 2"(estimate), so not nearly the rocker and the edges engage quicker.) and I had a great time, boat handled well, felt stable in the bigger water, had a few swims but both where stupidity on my part. I paddled the Cranberry River (WV) this weekend, class 3-4 creek (awesome creek to paddle), fairly technical but not overwhelming. I had a VERY rough day, had to walk out eventually after like the 6th swim and running up against a undercut rock. My confidence was up after the LG so I thought I was ready for this type of run (I would run this easily in my kayak years ago).

So to my question-What are the technique differences in creeks? Has anyone else had this problem? What am I missing, I felt like a different paddler out there? Is my boat just not suited for this type of paddling?

Glad I found this out about myself, I was getting ready to make the jump to the UY.

Any help would be great!
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Post by John Coraor »

I haven't paddled the Cranberry and can't comment on the Ocoee's capabilities as I'm primarily a C-1 paddler, but paddling the Lower Gauley is certainly a different experience than running a technical III-IV creek. Some paddlers - and boats - do better at one than the other. I have yet to meet a slalom racer - and particularly a C-1 slalom paddler - who doesn't have a blast on the Upper Yough; afterall, it's just a long technical slalom course through a bunch of big boulders. However, paddling the bigger and pushier water on the Lower, or particularly the Upper Gauley, doesn't always produce the same reaction, and, to a certain extent, requires a different skill set. With a different paddler, vice versa sometimes applies.

Others will have to comment on the capabilities of your boat, but it may be that your skills, experience, and/or your personality were better suited to the Lower Gauley than to a tight, technical creek run...or it may be that you just had a bad day.

John
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Post by TonyB »

I had the reverse experience, got my but kicked on th UY first then went on the bigger water trip. Tight and technical needed some quicker responses and precision. It also helps to have people to follow that are taking the lines you wanna take. For the Loweer Gauley It seamed if I leaned forward and kept moving (pumps on of course) I was fine, I even Punched Hellhole. but then my fat butt can get some momentum.
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Post by PAC »

Fritz I have to agree with John. The Cberry is a different style of boat'n. More UYish. But do not despair! Because based on personally paddling with you on the LG I'm guessing it had a lot to due with you having a bad day.
The Cberry is tight and tech and depending on the flow it can be a flush or a pin-ball run. Where the LG at release time is wide open and pushie - LG also is not all that technical at the get-go and lets you slowly work into some of the more tech moves as you move on down.
Not sure who you were paddling with on the Cberry and group dynamics can play a part in either having a good or bad day. No diss'n intended - just its how things some time playout.
When you were with us you knew we were a "known cluster" waiting to happen that openly stated that swimming was not only an option, but a reality!
Getting on the Cberry with its first few tight and ledgey moves can lead to the tight'n of certain orifices - particularly with a gunho get'er done group dynamic.
Step back for a second and think if you can, as John said, be a slalom style paddler for a day. Okay you might swim on the YU too. Just don't let that shake you (we've been there done that :o ).
Just make sure you get cab forward and attack anything from the start, use the boats chimes, drive the boat and don't let the name get you all tighten up!
If you can hook up with Big Al, Joe and the Canadian pod on 10/10 that would be a pretty good group to make the UY run with. They too have been there, done that.
See if you can get "Not Elvis" to show too (I'm out - family duties :cry: ) since he always tells you 5 - 12 lines and that you're going to die on all of them! :wink:
Take the easy lines and style them! The biggest item on the Upper Y is the ability to catch eddies and watch others to get the lines down (aka learn from their mistakes or ace's)! Relax and have fun. I think you're ready for it ... if you think you are! 8)
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Post by Bill M »

This is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth. The bigger water takes a different skill set than the technical stuff. I think creeks require more exacting boat control and also punish you worse and quicker for mistakes. That being said I also think the Cranberry is a little harder than the lower Gauley.
Another thought is were you really on your game the first day and not so much the next?
The Ocoee, without your modifications, is a good creek boat and does well on bigger water.
Bill
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Post by kabuki_blaze »

Thanks to all for your thoughts and inspiring words (Thanks PAC). I swam the first drop on the Cranberry and that was a long hurtful swim. I think my head was slightly out of it, then it became more so with more swims, I can be real heady like that...I had a good group, but no-one knew the river, it was all scouting...One of my boating buddies paddles a XL13 and was buttering every drop, while I kept eating sh%$. I also lost my wedding ring on the first swim :cry: , so I had that issue to deal with as well. I agree, its a completely different set of skills, I just need to work on it and paddle with some Cboaters who can show me the way!

I just felt like the water snakes where grabbing my gunwales and flipping me over, it was always a surprise (but when arent they?).

But the best cap off to the day was the end, after I got changed into some nice dry clothes, I grabbed a beer and headed stream side to wait for my group to come down. I'm standing on this rock admiring the view and SPLASH!! I slide off the rock in dry clothes and Im soaked! I did save the beer though :lol: But maybe that tells you the kind of day I was having, and you should see my helmet!
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Post by gumpy »

fritz come on out with us on the UY 10/10. if i can have fun there you can too!

that's an agressive boat, you need to be an agressive boater in it. or just put longer thwarts back in it, plenty of ocoee owners here to give you measurements. would make it more stable, and drier :D
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Wow

Post by jim gross »

There's gold in them thar rivers.

Hey man turn that Occoee right side out not inside out like you have right now. The boat will turn a lot quicker this way and make a more effective creeker. The big water is a breeze, just get in the flow and float the rapids. Effectively you realy only have to stroke in the flats and a couple move effecting strokes in rapids.

Learn on the creeks man. :-)

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Post by kabuki_blaze »

I would love to go down the UY with you guys, I'm sure by the 10th the cranberry will be a distant memory, Unfortunately, I am going to be out of town that weekend. As soon as things start flowing this fall and early spring lets hit a lot of the creeks, I want to redeem myself.

I may look into un-modifying my Ocoee, or just finding a stock one out there...I still wonder about the detonator, having some rocker back in my life would be nice as well...

I think there are some basic paddling positions i need to get ironed out, I was looking at pictures of my run and a lot of time my paddle shaft was not even close to vertical!! I dont have many pictures:

Link to pictures

http://www.boondoggledesigns.com/DOWNST ... index.html

Please Critique if you are so inclined, thanks!
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Post by TheKrikkitWars »

For me, the major things to remember in creeking is that there's often only one line, it's quite narrow, and it must be nailed. Turning quickly whilst still tracking a line, maintaining momentum through a chain of manouvres, and never ever ever hitting the walls, are order of the day.

On the flip side, running big volume, I was looking at lines 10 yards wide, through features the size of my boat and then a bit again, I'd be able to pick up the speed i needed from the water whenever it took me to, and paddling was mainly to keep on track and my nose up; the worst case was always that I'd swim a long way, rather than vertically pin, or get stuck in a siphon or some other horrendous fate.
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Post by bambam »

Curious set of circumstances for you. What was the level on the Cranberry? At ordinary levels, say around four feet, I'd view it as easier than the Lower Gauley but then I'm not much on big water.

Were you catching tons of eddies? To me that's the key difference. You can run the whole LG without catching an eddy but on the Cranberry, unless you memorized it, that won't work.

To me, an Ocoee is better suited for the Cranberry than the LG.

And by the way, in my opinion, the Upper Yough is about a full class more difficult than the Cranberry, with more consequences, plus it ain't roadside like the Cranberry. (Also note, I haven't seen anything indicating there will be an October 10 release there anyway.)

Give the Cranberry another try. It's one of my favorites.

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Post by jscottl67 »

Knowing the boat and how it handles, my immediate thought is this - you were paddling more aggressively on the bigger, more open water and you slowed down on the tighter more technical run.

With the edges and the less rocker on that boat, it is stable and snappy into the turns when you're moving faster than the current; if you're going with the flow of the current it tends to kind of hang out there a little more on the turns and you don't want to be hanging out even close to sideways on that boat. I used to run into it more when following people down lines I didn't know and having to slow the boat down. Follow further back so that when you're in the fun stuff you're attacking - that boat wants to go fast.

Just my 2¢.
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Post by Dooleyoc-1 »

Creek boating requires totally different skills. Like anything else you just need to get out and practice a lot.

-Generally speaking you need to go eddy to eddy.

-It is much easier to follow behind someone else that knows the lines your first time down a new creek

-Your boat is probably less than ideal for creeking. (not to say you can't run class V+ creeks in a modified ocoee and that it's not a good boat...) Shorter boats can be easier on creeks because they can make all of the tight turns easier. Also, a regular ocoee might be better for creeking because it would be more stable and drier. Your boat is faster but you don't really need that much speed on a creek.

Keep practicing. You will love it once you get the hang of it. Also, come down to Ain't LouieFest in March. You can run creeks for a week with other open boaters. That is a good time to step up and learn some new skills with a safe group of people that can help you out.
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Post by TheKrikkitWars »

For me, this photo, this photo & this photo (not me, A wee fellow called Kelvin) show all the positive traits you need to work towards for good creeking technique.
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Post by KNeal »

Know your boat, know your boat, know your boat. Your best runs on the bigger rivers will come from getting off the low brace and using off-side strokes when needed instead of relying heavily on just on-side corrective strokes and hoping you have enough forward momentum to put you where you need to be.

That in addition to what all the other posters said.

Go when you feel ready and go with friends you know and speak your language.

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