Hydra Centaur C1

[billcanoes]

I'm 5'7 200, and I'm thinking about a Hydra, the only other C1 I've tried was the Atom which I was miserable in. Does anyone know what the weight range for this boat is? Is it stable enough to learn C1ing on?

Thanks,
Bill

[mshelton]

Dunno, but I've got one here in RIC. I've never paddled it before but if your up here you're more than welcome to take it out and try it. I got it cause I thought it would look cool hanging in the garage.

[Sir Adam]

I'm not sure I'd recomend trying to learn in one these days...there are a lot of better boats out there. If you didn't like the Atom I'd say try a cascade, as it's a bit less edgy than the atom. Or post what you didn't like and we can try to steer you in a different direction.

If you DO decide to boat the centaur I've heard it's best to remove the center pillar, trim it, and put it back in, and put foam horizontally-supposedly the boat is too narrow as factory outfitted ("U" shaped) and modifying it in this way (making the bottom of the U a little wider) is the way the boat was supposed to be. It does not require heating.

By my recollection (the 1 time I've been in my centaur) both the Atom and Cascade seemed more stable (I'm about 150 lbs), but the atom is much "edgier" if you weigh a bit more.

Good luck regardless!

[Guest]

Hard to tell what the upper weight limit for a Centaur is...that boat performs so poorly for most paddlers, regardless of size, who knows when it "bottoms out" because of an overloaded condition.

Back when the design was new (nearly a quarter century ago), there was no such thing as a "paddler weight range." There was only one boat length (OK, I am ignoring wildwater boats) and volume was either "high" or "low." The Centaur was high...very high. As an early plastic C-1 design, the molding process limited the amount of bend and curve that could be used to improve performance. The Centaur (and most other Hydra designs) did not enjoy the popularity of Dagger and Perception plastic boats.

Do yourself a favor and pick another boat. Even an old Hahn derivation will be much more fun to paddle. (Maybe Gertler has an extra one he would part with?)

Kneeling in any C-boat is much different than kneeling in an open canoe. That difference is part of the price you pay for a higher performance boat. A C-boater quickly learns to take frequent knee breaks, and pick river reaches with an eye to total miles, rapids per mile, and amount of flat water!

The difficulty you had in an Atom may be a matter of how it was outfitted, not the boat design. A too low seat will make any boat uncomfortable. So will the (lack of) flexibility in your legs, ankles, and feet. Without limber joints, tendons, muscles, etc. the kneeling position can become very uncomfortable in short order.

The Atom is a problem to paddle for a lot of people. Some people think it is too squirrelly and grabby. But if you are just starting out, having an Atom is a great way to develop a reliable roll! Being made of plastic, it will forgive your transgressions with rocks without your having to learn glass repair. That will speed the learning process, too. I think it is a good choice for those converting from OC.

C-boating is not a comfort pastime. The lower body pain is pretty much a matter of degree, and going numb is a run-of-the-mill condition.

This type of boating requires endurance in the military sense: the ability to withstand pain and fatigue.

[sbroam]

Such gloom and doom! While pain may be a fact of life for some c-boaters, understand that for at least some, comfort is achievable - maybe even for you!

[billcanoes]

What I didn't like about the cascade is it's edginess. I felt like I was going to tip over the whole time. I wasn't in the boat long enough to get any discomfort.

Thanks for the advice, I think I'll hold off on the Hydra.

I've been looking for an inexpensive cascade, or a used Wide Ride when I found the Hydra. I wanted to give the C1 boating another try but didn't want to sink a lot of money into it.

MSHELTON,
I'll send an email the next time I go to Richmond. Even if I get a different C1 I wouldn't mind trying an old school boat just for fun.

Bill

[clt_capt]

Do yourself a favor - look for any other old Plastic C-1 rather than the Centaur. If you can find an old Gyramax - Great.

The centaur has no edges, no real stability and is very slow. At least the gyramax has a flatter bottom and some initial stability.

The only C-1 I ever paddled that was worse than the centaur was the Perception sage.

Fred

[Sir Adam]

Lucky me-I have both a Gyramax, Centaur, and Sage in the collection. I have yet to try the Sage out though-thanks for the warning!

I'll also echo SBroams comments-comfort IS achievable. I stretch for about 2 minutes in the morning when I remember, and am fine all day on a saddle of 7" or more. And am "comfortable" (e.g. not numb but stiff at times) on my 5.5 and 6" saddles. Considering you can easily put an 8" saddle in some of the wider boats (and I've known people with 9" and 10"!) it should be possible for anyone...but it DOES take TIME to get things right.

[mshelton]

What kind of stretches do you do? All I ever do is sit in a kneeling position with my butt on the ground for a few min before I boat but it dosen't seem to help much. Knowing and doing a good routine would definately be benefical.

[Guest]

Didn't mean to preach gloom and doom! Just the facts as I have observed them.

While some can claim to eventually find comfort in their c-boats, it is always after specific physical training and endless tweaking of their outfitting. I think it is more a matter individual tolerance levels for pain.

Time in the boat is another factor related to physical comfort. If you boat every day, your body can get used to the abuse...for a few years.

Anyone starting out needs to understand that finding C-1 comfort is a process, and usually a long one. And anyone with a family history of arthritis or other joint disease should reconsider attempting a long C-boat career.

How many C-boaters can dismount at the takeout, pickup and hike off without waiting for the "stiffness" to subside or "feeling" to return to their lower extremities?

The vast majority cannot. Those that can are likely world-class athletes or under 30 years old, or both. I am neither, and some times I haven't been able to stand up for several minutes after flopping out of my boat onto the riverbank.

For kayakers and open boaters, the reverse is true. Most of them dismount and carry up right away. Their complaints are tired arms or sore backs. Those hobbling around with gimpy knees and ankles are the C-boaters...everytime.

After all, if a kneeling position is as comfortable as sitting for most people, why are churches filled with pews? (I suppose that Moslem paddlers would make great C-boaters, but the geography of the Middle East does not promote whitewater sport.)

I will just continue to rely on using copious amounts of ibuprofen...before, during, and after c-boating to obtain my comfort level. And as for my outfitting, I am usually delighted when the pain is succeeded by numbness!

Yet, I still find it worth it. C-ya.

[Sir Adam]

First off, I am (for now) in the less-than-30 crowd, though not by much. Every morning (that I remember...) I stretch my thigh muscles by standing on one leg and holding the other foot behind me. Just remember when doing this the point is NOT to get your legs 180 and tweak your knees-it's to stretch the muscle. You'll find moving your knee to the back of you (while doing standing doing this stretch) does this nicely (stetches the muscle without tweaking your knees). I AM NOT any sort of physical therapist, but I used to race cross-country skiing, and thus stretched this way a lot, and have heriditary bad knees (hence all the knee comments).

If you to a search for stretches you'll see a few routines show up I believe that are a lot more complete than mine.

One other note-the more fit you are the lower your seat can comfortably be. When I was about 175 lbs my comfort minimum was 7.5-8"...before that when I was 160 it was 6.5", and now that I'm down to 150 (thank you nasty little bug from the carribean) 6" is OK...and that's without as much stretching as I used to do.

I'm also about 5'9", for those that want to compare size and heigh with seat height.

[sbroam]

I did start about 13 years ago in an open boat with an unremarkable saddle (8"?) - 5 or 6 years of that and I moved into C-1s mostly. I've got boats in which I can manage an 8" + saddle, a couple closer to 7". I will sacrifice stability for comfort.

My secret, if it is one, is to paddle at least once a week - twice is better. These are not overly long sessions, maybe an hour of knocking around - some flatwater party tricks, maybe some feeble attainments, and the odd (and I do mean odd) attempt to cartwheel. And not always on moving water - I'm not allergic to flat water. As long as I'm in the boat once a week, the worst I suffer is pins and needles in my ankles at the take out. Twice a week and I can stay in the boat all day. I'd even go so far as to say that it feels good stretching out my feet getting in the boat.

Of course everyone is different, your mileage may vary. There are tricks - the basketball as a TV chair; ankle blocks; no ankle blocks (don't work for me); vitamin I; etc... that may help.

I'm no athlete - life long klutz and I'm certainly not "svelte". I'm embarrassed how many times my height weight and physical description have been posted here - suffice it to say I'm middling tall and overly thick. As for age, 30 has come and gone but 40 is just as far off. If I keep feeling the way I do now, I think I should be able to keep this up for quite a while - another 20 years at least. Then I'll switch back to open boats.

Scott

[guest (KNeal]

After seeing the last post about age and athleticism from our "guest", I just had to respond and throw in my $0.02 worth . The comparison to pain from kneeling, related to the paddler's age and athleticism was subjective, though I am going to take that post as a compliment because I CAN hop right out of my c-1 and run uphill with the boat on my shoulders after several hours of paddling--and the reasons are simple.

Anytime someone exposes themselves to infrequent physical stress (say, once a week--like "weekend warriors"), they will experience repeated injury (overuse, trauma, etc.). I'll admit that kneeling on a pedestal that is less that 10 inches tall does stress the ankles quite a bit, but it is dependent on how flexible that joint is to begin with--aside from the outfitting issue.

Personally, I have swum competitively for the majority of my whole life and I believe that all those flutter kicks and "dolphin" kicks have helped increase my ankle dorsiflexion (the direction your feet point when they are pointing forward and downward). When I work with my clients, I try to kneel on the floor with my feet pointing back to keep working the ankle flexibility, so they stay conditioned to that position (kinda hard to do for the "9-5'er" wearing a tie at their office). I can kneel comfortably on a 6 inch saddle for hours and not suffer problems when getting out of the boat--MOST of the time. The exceptions come from getting in the boat after not paddling for weeks or (shudder ) months. Then the problem is typical "weekend warrioritis" and my ankles are not the only thing bothering me (elbows, shoulders, middle back, etc.).

I DO like the 30's and athleticism reference. Even though I just broke into the 40+ crowd and have peaked athletically, I must still be physiologically young (at least, mentally ) and still quite an athlete (though my body will argue that one).

Remember that ANYTIME you play weekend warrior with ANY sport (even chess?), you will suffer from the lack of conditioning. And THAT is a fact.

Y'all take care.

KNeal

P.S. Always remember Carter Hearn when discussing age, comfort, and abilities. that man is WELL into his 70's and is still paddling his slalom c-1 Fanatic. I talked with him for a little bit while we were in our boats last fall on the Lower Gauley and he looked GREAT out there.