C-Forum

Shep wrote:Check out photos of the setup in a Vertige X or XL-14 or similar to see it. Shep

Link for pics please

With a saddle you are on your knees the whole time. It is much more comfortable than it would seem and I find it easier to kneel a whole day in a good saddle than to kneel for 20 minutes with kneed pads and a traditional canoe seat. You need to try a boat with a WW type saddle that fits you before you rule that out.

GosuPaintballer wrote:Ok, newbie question.... With the triple saddle or any saddle for that matter, i'm assuming your on your knees with the saddle inbetween your legs the whole time? Even though you're sitting on the saddle your knees are on the floor as well or is there other ways to sit on the saddle and paddle with your legs in front of you? The reason for this question, is both myself and my wife have bad knees and are unable to sit in the position where our knees are on the floor for any amount of long periods of time. 15 minutes here and there is no problem, but for a ww trip lasting several hours this just won't do for either of us. That's why i'm wanting the normal seating, but have it set up where we can still drop down to the floor on our knees for bigger rapids when we need to. Example is if we went to run the Nantahala, we could paddle it in the sitting position for the entire run, and then drop to our knees for better stability when we go down the falls at the end.

Let me get this straight... you want to run class II-IV but you can't kneel for very long? You want to be able to paddle it solo and tandem as well?

You can order a Vertige X http://www.esquif.com/2008/canot_en.php?id=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with regular cane or webbed seats and they will add knees pads and thigh straps (whitewater outfitting) at the factory for an additional charge. I've seen several of their Pocket Canyons set up this way. Not sure if a triple seat setup is a possible option but one can always ask.

That said... if you want to paddle whitewater on a regular basis cane seats really aren't ideal. I'm always a bit leery about people getting thier legs pinned under them in a wrap or pin situation.

I can't even believe I'm about to post this but have you considered an IK?
http://www.aire.com/aire/products/default.aspx?id=228" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.aire.com/aire/products/default.aspx?id=196" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the knees are that bad, you want to paddle tandem and solo... well...

Edit... I don't feel as bad for suggesting an IK... Adam made a similar suggestion to you in one of your previous threads.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7966038&p=94431#p94431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, i've looked over IK's on Aire's website a lot and like them, but seeing as i already have a ww kayak, i was kinda wanting to go a different route with a canoe. Even though the IK's look super easy and fun to paddle, i think it would be very similar to my kayak i have now. Just thought paddling a canoe would be a completely different and fun experience vs paddling a kayak or IK which IMO would be basically the same.

ive seen people kneel on the tube in an ik and paddle it with a single blade. then you could do that through whatever rapids you felt like, and sit down in normally anytime you didnt.

An older used Dagger Dimension would fit the bill for what you want to run, but I share Smerda's concern about not being able to kneel for very long. I have seen downriver canoes outfitted for running easy ww (2- 2+) from sitting position but for 3 and up you are better off with the lower center of gravity that kneeling provides. My Dimension is plenty comfy kneeling while paddling tandem; wide saddles,adjustable straps, large foam pads on hull and plenty of room to move around if desired. A Caption or Vertige (X) would be good choices as well

There are reasons that the recommendation keeps coming back to IK's, they are fun and easy to use. When you describe what you want a new boat to do, to me, you are giving a description of an IK, not a WW tandem canoe.

You want one boat to do it all, one that is bombproof and anyone can jump into and just run whatever strikes their fancy. You don't want to kneel and you want something that is kid friendly. Paddling a canoe is whitewater is fun, it is a different experience from paddling a kayak (so I'm told) BUT there is a level of commitment that needs to come with it to learn the sport. It is not a raft to climb into for a break when you get tired of being crammed into a kayak.

None of us really want to tell you not to learn WW canoeing because it is great. We don't want to come out and say that a canoe is not going to work for what you want because many of the folks that follow this board could do exactly what you want to do with a WW canoe. My take is that for what you want a tandem canoe is going to require more of a commitment than you are wanting to put into it.

Inflatables are by their very nature forgiving, bombproof and easy to keep upright. A two man shredder is great fun, though you need two people to paddle one. A raft with an oar rig would work also but that is a big investment and likely overkill. An IK is fits the bill of what you seem to want out of a new boat.

Now.....if you do want to learn WW canoeing, good, find a decent boat and get out there and do it. Just have reasonable expectations of what you are setting out to learn and realize that if you develop the skills you may never want to cram yourself into a kayak again

Here's the IC's... sorry I couldn't recall the name of the company this morning.

http://www.soar1.com/sec_canoe.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For the use of seats instead of saddles, not to mention the diversity of solo and various tandem configurations, I don't think you can get all this in one boat. Class II is just way too different from moderate class IV!

So, for now I'd forget the eventuallity of class III-IV and just ask about boats (not rocker specs) that you can use solo and tandem on whatever type of type class II-III rivers with whatever amount of eddying/playing.

I wish Old Town still made it's 14' Cascade (small Appalachian). The Pocket Canyon would probably be the current equivalent.

Don't worry about class IV until you've gotten into the class II-III stuff and know a bit more about you want, and whether your knees are up for saddles etc.

Maybe it's a regional or personal difference in interpretting the classification system, but I don't think it's realistic to expectto get into running modrate class IV, or even legitimate/continuous class III, with seats instead of saddles, at least not if you're interested in catching eddies and surfs.

Pat.

If your long term goal is getting your kid boating, I think the IK is your best bet. You'll be able to immediately run rivers like the Tuck and Nantahala with a reasonable expection that you'll remain upright and not scare your kid out of boating. If he gets the hang of it, maybe he could bring a buddy on a river like the lower green or tuck, and you and the wife could kayak down with them.


If you're dead set on a canoe, I'd go with an Appalachian or something similar. That would give you the set up you're looking for and get you down any class 2 in the southeast. With some practice you could run the Nantahala, Section 3 of the Chattooga, and other similar rivers. It would also give you a stable platform where you could sit up on the seat and get off your knees when needed. Later on, you could find something like a Probe or Caption that would get you to the III/IV rivers.

yarnellboat wrote:
Don't worry about class IV until you've gotten into the class II-III stuff and know a bit more about you want, and whether your knees are up for saddles etc.

Maybe it's a regional or personal difference in interpretting the classification system, but I don't think it's realistic to expectto get into running modrate class IV, or even legitimate/continuous class III, with seats instead of saddles, at least not if you're interested in catching eddies and surfs.

Pat.

I think it's a beginner thing. I know I was guilty of it before I actually canoed any whitewater. You vaguely know there's a rating system from 1-5, so 3 sounds "medium" and maybe you want a bit more than "medium" so maybe you throw "low class IV" out there too. Then once you get into it you realize that for 99% of all canoers out there, class III is hardly "medium." And so you adjust your expectations and how you talk about them.

Thanks for all the advice so far guys! Keep it coming...

As far as the class rivers i want to run, i did not mean for it to sound like i'm gonna jump right into big class 3's and 4's right off the bat, but i don't feel like the learning curve to get there will take as long as some say or that it takes most people to get to where they want to be. I maybe wrong on this, but i was told the EXACT same thing when i started kayaking a couple months ago. Needless to say i ran the Nantahala with no problems what so ever in my second time ever being in a kayak on moving water. Everyone else i went with that started kayaking when i did or before me all flipped several times. Same thing happened when we ran the lower Green. Everyone was getting flipped and rolled in easy stuff while i was paddling along with no problems. I feel like i can paddle class 3 now with no problems, and only been on WW twice in a kayak so far. I maybe wrong for saying this, but only time will tell.... When everyone said class 2 would kick my butt when first starting out and no way should i attempt any class 3's until i had run class 2's a good bit first, and i've already done the Nanty on only my second time in a kayak with no problem is why i feel like i progress much faster with sports / adrenaline hobbies then the majority of most other people. Now to get back to the reason i was asking for a canoe that can run class 3 and smaller 4's is i don't wanna spend the money on a boat that's only capable of class 2's cause others think it will be a year or two before i'm ready for class 3's and 4's and by that time i'll want a different canoe anyways. But hey, i maybe wrong and not be able to do even class 2's in a canoe well for a long time, but on the other end i feel like it will be similar to how i've picked up learning to kayak. I've only made two runs in my kayak ever, but i'll bet $ i'll be able to run class 4's with no problem by the fall this year!

Rapid class progression is not linear. Its more like exponential. Class 3 is significantly harder than class 2 and class 4 is an even bigger step up, usually with a good deal more danger added as well. Canoes are also more difficult to handle than kayaks, with a longer learning curve. Finally, you may be gifted or just lucky, 2 trips down the Nantahalla are not enough to really tell. I've had days when I styled the river and other days when I've had my butt handed to me on the same river at the same level.

The last time I paddled the Nantahalla, I did it with my brother(who had minimal whitewater experience) in a Mad River Explorer with cane seats and we had no trouble. We even rescued some swimmimg kayakers. That boat handled section 3 of the Chattooga pretty well too until Bull Sluice. With no thigh straps it was hard to effectively brace.

GP, some good suggestions on here for you, but take it all wid salt. More important than any boat is the boater. If you feel comfortable, or "get it" then learn to use any boat u can get your hands on and make it work. Get yourself a whitewater tandem (dimension, OT Appalachian, MR explorer along with offerings from Esquif, all are good boats) and you should have no issues. Throw some kneepads in it, and you should also have no issues. You dont need straps, or a saddle. Kneel down when u want stability, sit when u need a break, or when cruisin between rapids. Sure youll eventually get the bug for other more specialized boats, but youll always go back to the tandem because it can do all kinds of things well. i strongly suggest gettin at least a center float bag, but beside that and kneepads is all the outfitting u will need. It all depend on you whether the boat can get down IVs. tandems set up in this fashion are quite capable of anything u'd want or need to do in rapids. For comfort, and beer capacity tandems cannot be beat.

True, it's driver-dependent to some extent. But what I think of class IVs aren't typically done by tandem canoes with seats, unless it's a single drop in warm water just for a lark/swim.

Though it's not impossible, especially by experienced canoeists, doing much class III-IV ww in a canoe outfitted with seats doesn't make much sense to me, but good luck with your boat-finding and your progression! Most class III-IV tandem canoes (Caption, Vertige X, Probe 14 and other newer, smaller, more spacialized ones) you don't see outfitted with seats, so that's why I'd focus on your more immediate use and your most frequent use to select a canoe for now.

Something like the Appalachian or Pocket Canyon shouldn't hold you back from some class III canoeing, which I suspect you'll find significantly different from class III butt-boating.

Maybe that's another difference between ww kayaking and ww canoeing - you can use the same ww kayak easily for class II-IV, but unfortunately tandem canoes that you can happily use for class II-III may not fair so well in class III-IV. I think the canoe hulls and outfitting need to get more specialized as you move from class II to class IV.

Good luck! Pat.