any C1 manufacturers for the future? Dagger giving up?
by Quico Reed
Now that Dagger has ended production of the Atom, does anyone know if they are planning a new C1 design, or if any other companies will be making any C1s?
It seems the Cascade and Atom were quite popular among canoeists. Does anyone know if these plastic C1s were just not profitable for the company and will not be made anymore, or what?
It seems a shame if NO oNE will make any more.
Of course...it does seem high time for some new innovation in design!
Just curious.
Posted on Oct 31, 2002, 7:03 AM
anybody got a
by finkenmister??
robson made c-1, in SE US
frinkenmister
9'3" , 28.75 , 13.5 , 74gal , 38lbs?
Posted on Oct 31, 2002, 9:30 AM
C1's
by Kev
The deal is with C1 specific boats...well to tell you the trith it isn't worth it for the companies becasue there is no market. Also converting kayaks over in my opinion is even better than a pre made C1, and there are tons of sweet designs out there that make kick butt C1's. If you take the time to outfit them properly. Unless of course your doing slalom, then that's a whole new ball game. But for any other type, There is a kayak conversion out there that WILL work for anyone.
Posted on Oct 31, 2002, 1:10 PM
Kayaks / C-boats
by DaveM
I agree that unfortunately there isn't enough market for a plastic C-1. However, I find it hard to believe that a kayak will make as good a C-boat as a purpose built C-boat.
I haven't paddled many kayak to C-boat conversions, but I gotta think the design that goes into the weight distribution in a kayak would be much different than in a C-boat.
In a C-boat all of your weight is centered over the cockpit, whereas in a kayak, your your weight is a little more bow loaded as you legs are extend forward.
I gotta think that if a boat designer set out to design a hole surfing C-boat you would end up with a better C-boat design than a kayak conversion.
Maybe the ultimate solution is for all C-boaters to just start paddling glass purpose built C-boats so folks like Ian Thompson will be encouraged and motivated to come out with new designs....cause everything happens faster in glass....DM
Posted on Nov 1, 2002, 7:00 AM
Agree, to a point...
by Sir Adam
Overall, I must agree on two of DaveM's very good points:
1) In general purpose-built boats are better
2) Everything DOES happen faster in glass:)
That said, there are some poor kayaks out there that make GREAT CBoats (Dagger Honcho anyone?).
But overall, a properly designed and outfitted CBoat is truely a thing of beauty...Massive Groove, Acrobat, Viper, etc....
The former plastic boats (Sage, Gyramax, Slasher, Cascade, Atom, etc...) were designed as all-purpose boats, and worked well for their time (who else recalls reading that the Cascade is a "playboat" in Daggers literature at one time? But there wasn't enough competition to really come up with some great innovative designs as the 'yak companies do now.
So, as DaveM say's we'll just have to support the resin slingers:). FWIW I've got a Stealth mold, and am working on aquiring a Viper and possibly Blackwater mold as well....
C_ya!
Sir Adam of MBD
Posted on Nov 1, 2002, 8:27 AM
For Sir Adam
by 1blade
Any idea where the Prozone fitted into the conversion equation? Great, good, or so-so?
Have the chance of one...
Thanks
Posted on Nov 1, 2002, 6:00 PM
Prozone...J., Kalin?
by Sir Adam
Greetings...
Not sure about the Prozone...a lot of finding the right kayak to use as a CBoat is personal preference, it's intended use, and your size! Some folks have had great luck with the Inazone series, as well as The EZ and Forplay, X, XXX, and Z. Although I have to admit that I thought the Forplay made a decent C1, and know a die-hard CBoater who swears the Honcho is a great C1, I like to stick to long glass boats myself:)
Post your size and what you want to use the Prozone for, and we'll see what some others think....
Sir Adam
Posted on Nov 4, 2002, 6:41 AM
The barn will be full before the foundation is built
by Kelly-Rand
I was measuring the Viper and discovered that the front of the seat is 3" behind the centerline which I am sure helps with the surfing and stern squirts. It sure would be fun to see what performance characteristics could be developped from a modified Viper hull. I think it could be shortened 12" and still have about the same volume. I would like to see if it could be made to turn quicker like the Atom. Well here's to winter dreaming.
til next
jim
Posted on Nov 2, 2002, 1:48 PM
hey wait, couldn't they use the same bottom mold and just...
by Quico Reed
modify the top deck mold for a different deck combing to make it a c1?
they don't have to make a whole different boat! If i remember correctly from an explanation of how the plastic boats are made, don't they have a mold of the hull, and one of hte deck, and then stick them togehter?
if so, why not just make two deck designs? one kayak and one C1?
Posted on Nov 5, 2002, 9:04 AM
Plastic VS Glass
by Sir Adam
Greetings...
1) Plastic boats now days are "rotomolded"-they dump plastic pellats into the mold, heat it up to melt the plastic, and then slowly cool it-all while rotating the mold! The "seams" you see are where the mold halves themselves fit together. So it is molded as one unit...
2) The design of a C1 is really different than that of a K1 due to the different paddling position. C1s are generally wider and flatter than kayaks of the same era.
3) Glass boats are made in halves, then fitted together-hence the different "cuts" you can get, of various volumes.
C-ya!
Sir Adam
Posted on Nov 5, 2002, 2:02 PM
I got out my Gliss last night and took a look...AGH!
by Quico Reed
The cockpit is WAY too narrow to be turned into a decent c boat, I think. I know someone onthis forum paddles a Gliss as a C boat, but I think it's WAY too narrow for me, my knees had about 4 inches between them, I wouldnt have much control at all like that.
No, I think unless I find a kayak with a WIDE cockpit, I'll stick to the real thing.
I just CANT believe it wasn't profitable at all for the company. There must have been THOUSANDS of Atoms sold. If you built a C boat with the specs of a GTX, or X, but with a different cockpit design, I think you'd have a hot selling item. Maybe it wouldn't make you millions, but I bet it would sell quite well. Although I think the 8 foot length of those boats is not quite right, either. I think you still need a little length for speed, under 10 feet but over 9. Just my opinion...of course, 8 feet glass would probably be way faster than 9 feet plastic, doncha think?
I hope the 'resin slingers' as you call them hear that and begin to innovate new designs. I don't want an 11 or 13 foot boat! I want one about the size of the Atom, 9 feet is a great length, with some rocker, a little more volume in the stern perhaps, and a planing hull!
I think Millbrooks makes one that comes kinda close, (Wide Ride and Hornet) but they are still too big for my taste.
Posted on Nov 5, 2002, 7:30 AM
Too big, just cut it down
by DaveM
If you like the Wide Ride and the Hornet but the volume is too much, just get Kaz to cut one down for you. I'm sure he would be glad to do it.
That's the great thing about glass boats, you don't have to settle for anything, every boat can be a custom boat.
If the cockpit is too small, make it with a bigger one.
If the stock boat is too big cut it down and vice versa.
If it's too long, make it shorter.
Why would anyone not paddle glass boats....they are simply the best and besides....everything happens faster in glass...DM
Posted on Nov 6, 2002, 5:40 AM
Finkenmeister
by Steffen
Hi
I´ve paddled a Finkenmeister. It´s very fast,stable and big. In WW it´s akind of hole- destroyer. But for me 170lb it has too much volume. It´s a good creeker at 200lb and a good riverrunner at 240lb or more(in my opinion). Perhaps there will be a lowvolume type.
www.robsonpaddles.com
Posted on Nov 3, 2002, 11:37 AM
URL correction for that finkenmeister--anyone know Centimeter conversions?
by Quico Reed
the URL is http://www.robsonpaddle.de/download/boats.htm
So, what is this in English measurements?
Brand new - fully fitted C1 Whitewaterboat
length = 277 cm I'm guessing around 10.5 feet?
width = 73 cm
height = 35 cm
This is looking close to what I want out of a C1!!!
Posted on Nov 5, 2002, 8:40 AM
Metric to Imperial conversion...
by Kalin
2.54 cms = 1 inch.
Hope that helps! Looks like a cool boat!
Kalin.
Posted on Nov 7, 2002, 10:43 AM
Isn't the Moonster also a C1?
by Quico Reed
Who is this Robson company anyway?! never heard of them. What do you know about them?
But those are some pretty cool looking C1s!
I'll go check them out in more depth. Thanks for the info.
by theway, for anyone else, I did a Google search and found their home page.
http://www.robsonpaddle.de/index.html
Posted on Nov 5, 2002, 8:47 AM
corrections to my own posts
by Quico Reed
apparently the first picture I saw of the moonster was a c1, but they have it as a kayak also
here are the specs fo the finkenmeister in English measurements
Length 277 cm 9' 2"
Width 73 cm 28.75"
Height 35 cm 13.75"
Volume 280 Liter 74 gal
Weight 19,2 kg 42 lbs
Cockpit 58x55 cm 23" x 22
Yeah, now this is what I'm talking about. My guess is that this is gonna be one great ww C1!
Posted on Nov 5, 2002, 8:54 AM
any C1 manufacturers for the future? Dagger giving up?
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GSR design
Hi Larry,
Yes, you are right, the shell for the C1 and K1 versions are the same at the moment.
The designers (Wylie and Stephan) are kayaker and canoeist respectively and have free rein to go in whatever direction suits them. We made their second prototypes late last year from the same plug.
The two designs might diverge sometime - The prototype kayak version has already been narrowed slightly.
Testing of the C1 version has been delayed slightly by it's owner going steep creeking in Chile, but we hope to get some feedback from Stephan soon. After this we will hopefully know which way things are going.
Yes, you are right, the shell for the C1 and K1 versions are the same at the moment.
The designers (Wylie and Stephan) are kayaker and canoeist respectively and have free rein to go in whatever direction suits them. We made their second prototypes late last year from the same plug.
The two designs might diverge sometime - The prototype kayak version has already been narrowed slightly.
Testing of the C1 version has been delayed slightly by it's owner going steep creeking in Chile, but we hope to get some feedback from Stephan soon. After this we will hopefully know which way things are going.
Gwyn
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